Software Freedom Day: Hunt for Skype alternatives

[Sam Tuke]

Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest
ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be
testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.

The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but
*anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to find
people to test chatting with, and see what still needs testing (email
manchester at lists.fsfe.org if you need help getting access to IRC).

The aim is to publish the results as a compatibility chart that will show at a
glance the easiest way to chat. As many Free Software users still use Skype
due to confusion surrounding Free Software alternatives, our research will
hopefully be very useful to a variety of individuals and organisations.

*Activity outline*

- Testing takes place on 15.09.12 at 14.00-17.00 UK time (15.00-18.00 CEST)
- Use a grid of Free Software chat programs for collecting our findings
- Test as many chat clients as possible (eg. Pidgin, Psi)
- For each combination of programs test whether voice chat and video
works (people without webcams can still test voice chat)

*Optional additional tests*

- Try connecting to other people at madlab, and also try
connecting to people in other countries
- Test the Free Software clients with different operating
systems if people bring them installed on laptops
- Test different versions of chat clients (not just the latest release)

*Requirements*

- Bring your own laptop (some older laptops will be available to borrow)
- Your laptop should have either a built in microphone, a separate microphone,
or mic headset

*Optional Requirements*

- Built in, or stand-alone webcam

Three separate Free Software and GNU/Linux groups will be meeting in MadLab on
Saturday: Manchester FSFE Fellowship Group, Manchester Free Software, and
ManLUG. Other activities will likely be available in addition to chat testing,
so feel free to come along and see what you fancy.

MadLab event page: http://madlab.org.uk/content/fsfe-manchester-free-software-
and-manlug/

"See" you there (one way or another :) ),

Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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[Mike Dupont]

Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS,
mike

Post by Sam Tuke
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest
ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be
testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but
*anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to find
people to test chatting with, and see what still needs testing (email
manchester at lists.fsfe.org if you need help getting access to IRC).
The aim is to publish the results as a compatibility chart that will show at a
glance the easiest way to chat. As many Free Software users still use Skype
due to confusion surrounding Free Software alternatives, our research will
hopefully be very useful to a variety of individuals and organisations.
*Activity outline*
- Testing takes place on 15.09.12 at 14.00-17.00 UK time (15.00-18.00 CEST)
- Use a grid of Free Software chat programs for collecting our findings
- Test as many chat clients as possible (eg. Pidgin, Psi)
- For each combination of programs test whether voice chat and video
works (people without webcams can still test voice chat)
*Optional additional tests*
- Try connecting to other people at madlab, and also try
connecting to people in other countries
- Test the Free Software clients with different operating
systems if people bring them installed on laptops
- Test different versions of chat clients (not just the latest release)
*Requirements*
- Bring your own laptop (some older laptops will be available to borrow)
- Your laptop should have either a built in microphone, a separate microphone,
or mic headset
*Optional Requirements*
- Built in, or stand-alone webcam
Three separate Free Software and GNU/Linux groups will be meeting in MadLab on
Saturday: Manchester FSFE Fellowship Group, Manchester Free Software, and
ManLUG. Other activities will likely be available in addition to chat testing,
so feel free to come along and see what you fancy.
http://madlab.org.uk/content/fsfe-manchester-free-software-
and-manlug/
"See" you there (one way or another :) ),
Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at fsfeurope.org
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion

--
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
<http://flossk.org>Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
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[ubsy]

Post by Mike Dupont
Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS,
mike

I worked with mumble before briefly. It works very well. Even a low
bandwidth server works. But it needs some configuration (setting up user
rules and chatrooms) and is essentially only useful if you use it for
MUC. But I would love to see more of mumble around.

So +1 for mumble.

Regards,

Phil

[Sam Tuke]

Post by Mike Dupont
Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS,

Added to the list of clients to test, thanks for the suggestion.

Post by Mike Dupont
Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.

Ditto above.

Post by Mike Dupont
It could be usefull - in this occasion or another - to test
interoperability too.
I'm thinking to commercial and accademic SIP system like the various set
top box for videoconferencing - now almost all based on open standards
like SIP and H.323 - or network based MCU like the ones available in the
inter-universitary and research netoworks (I'm referring to the italian
GARR [1] or the Caltech EVO [2]).

Yes that would be useful to know, but I think that for this event, unless we
have someone who's able to coordinate testing with these kinds of proprietary
clients, we will stick with Free Software applications. Apart from anything
else I expect most people to turn up running GNU/Linux (I may be wrong).

Post by Mike Dupont
Sounds interesting. I'd like to test empathy with google talk and what
should needs to be to setup your own server.

I think testing with Google talk is a good idea, even though it's no Free
Software, because it is so widely and easily used, and uses Open Standards.

Post by Mike Dupont
I also use linphone quite a lot,
although the two programs require different (incompatible AFAIK)
features from a SIP server.

They do use incompatible protocols, but both apps can be tested for
compatibility with other clients from their respective fields.

Post by Mike Dupont
I'm not sure what I'll be doing Saturday and my new internet
connection is still sorting itself out... but good luck to you
and please let us know your findings via discussion at fsfeurope!

Will do.

Post by Mike Dupont
Linphone is the only FLOSS VoIP/vidfone app I've ever had decent
results with but it uses SIP and many routers are funny with SIP so
they often require config to work well with SIP. Anything that
requires people start configuring network gear is instantly not
consumer friendly if not a prob for most Linux/*nix users. The main
prob with Linphone is it lacks encryption, or it did last time I
checked.

I guess we'll see if it works without network config or not. I don't plan to
fiddle with routers in order to fix issues. What we're looking for is out of the
box compatibility.

Post by Mike Dupont
I've ended up just using Gtalk which seems to be using webrtc as its
backend now. gtalk is non-free but webrtc is at least an open standard
unlike Skype and there are FLOSS webrtc clients (some HTML5) in
development.

Webrtc looks good - we can also test if chatting chromium to chromium works
with this as the backend.

Thanks for all the input so far!

Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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[Torsten Grote]

We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy,
and Kopete.

Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.

Regards,
Torsten
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[Otto Kekäläinen]

Post by Torsten Grote

We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy,
and Kopete.

Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.

+1 for https://jitsi.org/

[Andrea Di Dato]

Post by Sam Tuke
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest
ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be
testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.

[...]

It could be usefull - in this occasion or another - to test
interoperability too.
I'm thinking to commercial and accademic SIP system like the various set
top box for videoconferencing - now almost all based on open standards
like SIP and H.323 - or network based MCU like the ones available in the
inter-universitary and research netoworks (I'm referring to the italian
GARR [1] or the Caltech EVO [2]).


Andrea Di Dato



1. https://vconf.garr.it/
2. http://evo.caltech.edu/

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Post by Sam Tuke
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but
*anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to

Sounds interesting. I'd like to test empathy with google talk and what
should needs to be to setup your own server.

[MJ Ray]

Otto Kek?l?inen <otto at fsfe.org>

Post by Otto Kekäläinen

Post by Torsten Grote

We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy,
and Kopete.

Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.

+1 for https://jitsi.org/

Jitsi worked for me over XMPP. I also use linphone quite a lot,
although the two programs require different (incompatible AFAIK)
features from a SIP server.

I'm not sure what I'll be doing Saturday and my new internet
connection is still sorting itself out... but good luck to you
and please let us know your findings via discussion at fsfeurope!

Regards,

[Dan MacDonald]

Linphone is the only FLOSS VoIP/vidfone app I've ever had decent
results with but it uses SIP and many routers are funny with SIP so
they often require config to work well with SIP. Anything that
requires people start configuring network gear is instantly not
consumer friendly if not a prob for most Linux/*nix users. The main
prob with Linphone is it lacks encryption, or it did last time I
checked.

I've ended up just using Gtalk which seems to be using webrtc as its
backend now. gtalk is non-free but webrtc is at least an open standard
unlike Skype and there are FLOSS webrtc clients (some HTML5) in
development.

Post by Sam Tuke
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest
ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be
testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but
*anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to find
people to test chatting with, and see what still needs testing (email
manchester at lists.fsfe.org if you need help getting access to IRC).
The aim is to publish the results as a compatibility chart that will show at a
glance the easiest way to chat. As many Free Software users still use Skype
due to confusion surrounding Free Software alternatives, our research will
hopefully be very useful to a variety of individuals and organisations.
*Activity outline*
- Testing takes place on 15.09.12 at 14.00-17.00 UK time (15.00-18.00 CEST)
- Use a grid of Free Software chat programs for collecting our findings
- Test as many chat clients as possible (eg. Pidgin, Psi)
- For each combination of programs test whether voice chat and video
works (people without webcams can still test voice chat)
*Optional additional tests*
- Try connecting to other people at madlab, and also try
connecting to people in other countries
- Test the Free Software clients with different operating
systems if people bring them installed on laptops
- Test different versions of chat clients (not just the latest release)
*Requirements*
- Bring your own laptop (some older laptops will be available to borrow)
- Your laptop should have either a built in microphone, a separate microphone,
or mic headset
*Optional Requirements*
- Built in, or stand-alone webcam
Three separate Free Software and GNU/Linux groups will be meeting in MadLab on
Saturday: Manchester FSFE Fellowship Group, Manchester Free Software, and
ManLUG. Other activities will likely be available in addition to chat testing,
so feel free to come along and see what you fancy.
MadLab event page: http://madlab.org.uk/content/fsfe-manchester-free-software-
and-manlug/
"See" you there (one way or another :) ),
Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
_______________________________________________
Fsuk-manchester mailing list
Fsuk-manchester at nongnu.org
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Post by Mike Dupont
I've ended up just using Gtalk which seems to be using webrtc as its
backend now. gtalk is non-free but webrtc is at least an open standard
unlike Skype and there are FLOSS webrtc clients (some HTML5) in
development.

Have you tried gtalk with empathy? This way you shouldn't be running any
non-free code at least on your own computer. If it works I think the
best solution would be to start looking at how to build the server parts
using free software.

[Dan MacDonald]

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors
Have you tried gtalk with empathy? This way you shouldn't be running any
non-free code at least on your own computer. If it works I think the
best solution would be to start looking at how to build the server parts
using free software.

No I've not but that's a good suggestion and that could well be the
best free and open VoIP/VC solution if it works so I'll try that ASAP
and report back here if I do so before the test-o-thon.

Thanks

Dan

[David Gerard]

What about this isn't just the network effect problem?

Skype wins on network effect. (My utterly nontechnical mother got
broadband *just* to Skype to her grandchildren. "Video phone" =
"Skype". [1])

Ubuntu included Ekiga in the default install for ages. It works
perfectly well. They eventually took it out because pretty much no-one
used it.

I submit that the problem is not the software itself - it's gaining
network effect for the software, to overcome the proprietary
incumbent.


- d.

[1] yes, this is bad, but I'm describing the ground first.

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

[ I'm dropping all the extra Cc's, let's try to keep this on
discussion at fsfeurope.org ]

Post by David Gerard
Ubuntu included Ekiga in the default install for ages. It works
perfectly well. They eventually took it out because pretty much no-one
used it.

Perfectly well? At least with SIP it surely did not work from our
university where only outgoing tcp connections were allowed. I have
another place where the only way out is through a HTTP proxy. Ekiga did
not work there either. And at the same time everyone else was using
Skype and trying to get me to use it too.

[Sam Liddicott]

Ekiga also kept not quite supporting pulse audio for years so it never just
worked for me
On Sep 14, 2012 11:47 AM, "Timo Juhani Lindfors" <timo.lindfors at iki.fi>

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors
[ I'm dropping all the extra Cc's, let's try to keep this on
discussion at fsfeurope.org ]

Post by David Gerard
Ubuntu included Ekiga in the default install for ages. It works
perfectly well. They eventually took it out because pretty much no-one
used it.

Perfectly well? At least with SIP it surely did not work from our
university where only outgoing tcp connections were allowed. I have
another place where the only way out is through a HTTP proxy. Ekiga did
not work there either. And at the same time everyone else was using
Skype and trying to get me to use it too.
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[Ben Finney]

Post by David Gerard
Ubuntu included Ekiga in the default install for ages. It works
perfectly well. They eventually took it out because pretty much no-one
used it.

Ekiga is still in Debian, and I've never succeeded in getting it to work
with my (Internode) SIP account.

Linphone fares better, but still not very well in my experience: drops
in call quality are common, and abrupt terminations around 5 or 10
minutes into a call are almost certain for me.

[Sam Tuke]

Post by Ben Finney
abrupt terminations around 5 or 10
minutes into a call are almost certain for me.

I used to experience exactly the same issue with Empathy and my localphone.com
account. Since moving back to UK from Germany and mainly using the client on
my N900 I haven't had this problem fortunately.

I also have great trouble with the linphone interface - it's confusing how to
put in your account details.

Best,

Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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[Sam Tuke]

Hello all,

I've put a list of chat programs to test, and details of how to get
XMPP and SIP accounts if you need them:

http://etherpad.fsfe.org/j2uametMf3

The simple format to use for collecting chat results is explained
here, with examples:

http://etherpad.fsfe.org/RX7S6q45gQ

Anna Morris (username Gingerling) will be helping to coordinate the
#FSFE IRC channel, and assist people participating remotely in finding
people to chat with. Feel free to grab her attention from 14.00
onwards if you need help.

I tried finding some web-based spreadsheet software to use as a
results table, but I concluded that etherpad was the best solution (I
posted my findings here: https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1952960). We
can just make the results table after the event.

This is an interesting experiment - good luck everyone, I'm looking
forward to seeing what happens!

Best,

Sam.

- --
Sam Tuke
British Team Coordinator
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org

[D.Bolton U0970268]

Hi Sam,

Would it also be worth a notice on Libertree and/or Diaspora? There are a fair number of users across Europe on both systems.

How is the wider coordination going to be handled on the day? Via one of the email lists?

David
https://calispora.org/u/frogfall
http://maple.libertreeproject.org/profiles/show/84
http://identi.ca/frogfall

________________________________________
From: manchester-bounces at lists.fsfe.org [manchester-bounces at lists.fsfe.org] on behalf of Sam Tuke [samtuke at fsfe.org]
Sent: 13 September 2012 13:55
To: manchester at lists.fsfe.org; fellowship-uk at lists.fsfe.org; Manchester Free Software; discussion at fsfeurope.org; MAN-LUG at listserv.manchester.ac.uk
Subject: [FSFE-Manc] Software Freedom Day: Hunt for Skype alternatives

Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest
ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be
testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.

[snip]

[MJ Ray]

Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.lindfors at iki.fi>

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors
Perfectly well? At least with SIP it surely did not work from our
university where only outgoing tcp connections were allowed. I have
another place where the only way out is through a HTTP proxy. Ekiga did
not work there either. And at the same time everyone else was using
Skype and trying to get me to use it too.

It depends what you mean by "work". Is overriding the network's
restrictions a feature or a bug? Feature to the user, but bug to the
network managers. If the network is that nasty, shouldn't users be
connecting to a VPN?

Skype's firewall-busting is pretty extreme and seems to work a lot of
the time, but I boycott Skype because I can't tell what it's doing,
there have been enough bad reports that I don't trust it and the
alternatives of SIP/RTP and XMPP work well enough for me for now.

This is a rather old problem, which I covered back in
http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2007/fsf
so if anyone can solve it and help provide easy-to-use Free Software
internet phones to more people, that's great to see.

Regards,

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Post by MJ Ray
It depends what you mean by "work". Is overriding the network's
restrictions a feature or a bug? Feature to the user, but bug to the
network managers. If the network is that nasty, shouldn't users be
connecting to a VPN?

I think we should be looking for a free software alternative to
Skype. Trying to solve network issues is a completely different project
which is much less likely to succeed than a skype-like free software
solution.

[Mike Dupont]

I agree, it is only a matter of time till microsoft creates problems
with skype, we need to be prepared.
mike

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Timo Juhani Lindfors

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors
I think we should be looking for a free software alternative to
Skype. Trying to solve network issues is a completely different project
which is much less likely to succeed than a skype-like free software
solution.

[MJ Ray]

Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.lindfors at iki.fi>

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors

Post by MJ Ray
It depends what you mean by "work". Is overriding the network's
restrictions a feature or a bug? Feature to the user, but bug to the
network managers. If the network is that nasty, shouldn't users be
connecting to a VPN?

I think we should be looking for a free software alternative to
Skype. Trying to solve network issues is a completely different project
which is much less likely to succeed than a skype-like free software
solution.

Sure, but the reasons given for free software alternatives not working
seemed to be problems with the network at that university. Install a
VPN client or a Skype-style network-buster and one or more of
alternatives would just work. Work on bundling an alternative with a
VPN or a network-buster to make a skype-like solution if you think
that's what's really needed. I fear it's network effects like others
suggested, though.

Hope that helps,

[Mike Dupont]

Post by MJ Ray
Skype-style network-buster

that is a good idea, something that works like skype. is that not what
gnunet.org is working on?

[Mike Dupont]

and of course http://freedomboxfoundation.org/ is working on such a thing, no?

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Mike Dupont

Post by Mike Dupont

Post by MJ Ray
Skype-style network-buster

that is a good idea, something that works like skype. is that not what
gnunet.org is working on?
--
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3

[Sam Tuke]

Post by Mike Dupont

Post by MJ Ray
Skype-style network-buster

that is a good idea

Yes, and it is necessary, because as other have said it is often (usually?)
network issues, like getting connections to people behind NAT, that cause Free
Software clients to fail.

Mumble seems to get around these better than the rest.

I'm curious why text messages succeeds reliably over XMPP, while audio and
video streams frequently fail.

Post by Mike Dupont
is that not what
gnunet.org is working on?

Surely existing clients would need extensive reworking to use GnuNet or
Secushare? I don't see workable solutions of that nature arriving in the next
18 months, at least.

Best,

Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Post by MJ Ray
Sure, but the reasons given for free software alternatives not working
seemed to be problems with the network at that university. Install a
VPN client or a Skype-style network-buster and one or more of

But where do you connect with the VPN client?

[MJ Ray]

Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.lindfors at iki.fi>

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors

Post by MJ Ray
Sure, but the reasons given for free software alternatives not working
seemed to be problems with the network at that university. Install a
VPN client or a Skype-style network-buster and one or more of

But where do you connect with the VPN client?

Me? I connect to one of the co-op's VPN servers.

If I were setting up a competitor to Skype, I'd connect people to the
Skype-competitor's VPN if they've no other way of getting a useful
internet connection (if my software can't crack their network). Then
I'd aim to cover the cost of the VPN by selling users services like
inbound and outgoing calls to the legacy telephone network at a
premium.

I've no idea if Skype has such a VPN-like feature, but it's one way
which a business could do it, but would be harder for a voluntary
project to support. It would also need more care with a FOSS
project not to let users free-ride on the VPN for other things.

Hope that explains,

[Andreas K. Foerster]

Hello,

I wonder, why nobody here mentioned WebRTC.
As far as I know it is planned to implement something like Skype directly
in the webbrowser. Won't that solve the problem?
Okay, it's not quite ready now, but hopefully soon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

[Robert Kehl]

Post by Andreas K. Foerster
I wonder, why nobody here mentioned WebRTC.
As far as I know it is planned to implement something like Skype directly
in the webbrowser. Won't that solve the problem?

Which problem? The summup is 25 entries - so, to me it seems noone is
really interested in Skype, nor in a replacement of it.

I tried out Skype once and ended up with a friend of mine saying: "Hey,
that chat window is more beautiful than the Google one, isnt it?"

Maybe I'm not a friend of phone calls, but, anyway: Who cares about Skype?

With kind regards,

Robert Kehl

[Torsten Grote]

Post by Robert Kehl
Maybe I'm not a friend of phone calls, but, anyway: Who cares about Skype?

Unfortunately, way too many people do.

I've written two articles about the topic if you are interested:

http://freedom-blog.net/2009/03/ten-reasons-why-you-should-boycott-skype/

https://freedom-blog.net/2009/05/brave-new-skyping-world-revisited/

Regards,
Torsten
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[Martin Gollowitzer]

* Torsten Grote <Torsten.Grote at fsfe.org> [121018 10:19,

Post by Torsten Grote
http://freedom-blog.net/2009/03/ten-reasons-why-you-should-boycott-skype/
https://freedom-blog.net/2009/05/brave-new-skyping-world-revisited/

And they are really great. I think I have never thanked you personally
for that, so I'll catch up now:

Thank you very much.

Martin
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[Sam Tuke]

The results of the testing have been published here, together with
questions and conclusions:

https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html

Thanks to all who participated, locally, and remotely!

Sam.

- --
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org

[Dan MacDonald]

Hi Sam!

Thanks - I'd been waiting to see the results although I not so sure
about your prob with only being able to call people on the same SIP
service as I know that I have made SIP calls with Linphone in the past
to someone using a SIP account with a different provider, although
they were using linphone too (but under Windows IIRC).

I've still yet to try Pidgin for vid conf yet but its on my todo list.
Can anyone confirm you can vid call someone using Gmail from Pidgin
without the pidgin user having to have Googles non-free talk plugin
installed?

I don't think any of the voip clients support JACK which is a shame.

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The results of the testing have been published here, together with
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Thanks to all who participated, locally, and remotely!
Sam.
- --
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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_______________________________________________
Fsuk-manchester mailing list
Fsuk-manchester at nongnu.org
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester

[Sam Tuke]

Post by Dan MacDonald
I've still yet to try Pidgin for vid conf yet but its on my todo
list. Can anyone confirm you can vid call someone using Gmail from
Pidgin without the pidgin user having to have Googles non-free talk
plugin installed?

We had one video call pass using Pidgin to Google talk, so yes, it can
be done. What makes you say that the Google library is non-Free?
Libjingle, used by Google, is BSD licensed. Is there another Google
plugin I'm not aware of?

Post by Dan MacDonald
I don't think any of the voip clients support JACK which is a
shame.

I think you're right, and I agree!

Best,

Sam.

- --
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org

[Dan MacDonald]

Hi Sam!

Post by Sam Tuke
We had one video call pass using Pidgin to Google talk, so yes, it can
be done.

Thats good to know!

Post by Sam Tuke
What makes you say that the Google library is non-Free?
Libjingle, used by Google, is BSD licensed. Is there another Google
plugin I'm not aware of?

Maybe I was a bit vague but I'm referring to the Google talk Mozilla
plugin and related libs required to use GTalk under GMail. This is my
only experience of XMPP so far and you need to install Googles
google-talkplugin deb or rpm to enable it as far as I'm aware.

I have not been able to find any source to this so that I might be
able to use GMails XMPP/Jingle support under gmail on my Pandaboard
for example although I must admit I've not gone to the effort of
requesting said source from Google yet. Its nice having it under GMail
as you need a browser anyway and if you're a gmail user then its nice
not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally
'just works' TM, R etc

So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/

[James Michael DuPont]

Thanks for the writeup!
mike

Post by Sam Tuke
The results of the testing have been published here, together with
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html
Thanks to all who participated, locally, and remotely!

[MJ Ray]

Dan MacDonald <allcoms at gmail.com>

[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice
not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally
'just works' TM, R etc

Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.

So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/

Surely some of them on
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work
under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could
do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more
than one.

Regards,

[Myriam Schweingruber]

Post by MJ Ray
Dan MacDonald <allcoms at gmail.com>

[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice
not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally
'just works' TM, R etc

Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.

So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/

Surely some of them on
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work
under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could
do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more
than one.

Because Kopete is pretty much outdated and unmaintained, nowadays one
should use kde-telepathy for that, works quite fine here for XMPP.

Regards, Myriam

[Myriam Schweingruber]

Post by Myriam Schweingruber

Post by MJ Ray
Dan MacDonald <allcoms at gmail.com>

[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice
not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally
'just works' TM, R etc

Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.

So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/

Surely some of them on
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work
under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could
do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more
than one.

Because Kopete is pretty much outdated and unmaintained, nowadays one
should use kde-telepathy for that, works quite fine here for XMPP.

Oh and somebody should update that table, Kopete is a KDE client, not
a Gnome one (and it is outdated), please add kde-telepathy, see also
http://dot.kde.org/2012/08/27/5th-release-kde-telepathy-instant-messaging-suite
and http://community.kde.org/Real-Time_Communication_and_Collaboration.
I use it here on Kubuntu 12.04 and 12.10 beta2.


Regards, Myriam

[Daniel Pocock]

Post by Myriam Schweingruber

Post by MJ Ray
Dan MacDonald <allcoms at gmail.com>

[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice not having to
install and configure an extra client- it generally 'just
works' TM, R etc

Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.

So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/

Surely some of them on
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table
work under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the
table could do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for
example) can do more than one.

Because Kopete is pretty much outdated and unmaintained, nowadays
one should use kde-telepathy for that, works quite fine here for
XMPP.

I'm not sure if I can reply to all the lists on CC, but would it be
possible to set up a dedicated list for this initiative, or could I
offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?

http://lists.opentelecoms.org

A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under
the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative, the key
points are:
- - using TLS as default for both SIP and Jabber (SIP over UDP is
usually the default, but has too many NAT and MTU hassles these days)
- - using ICE and TURN for NAT traversal (but beware of gotchas, e.g.
Jitsi currently only supports ICE with Jabber and not SIP)
- - the codec suggestions (clients must implement as many as possible)

I've also posted some comments recently on the FreedomBox list:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/freedombox-discuss/2012-September/004576.html
and there was some feedback and discussion, I'm copying my comments
here as they are directly related to this discussion:

- ---------
I would certainly like to be involved in that and contribute what
resources I can to support it

I believe the testing needs to be a little bit more scientific and not
just take the `black box' approach, assessing each product on the
following perhaps:

- - supported codecs (e.g. patent free, suitable for mobile, ...) - and
which products support the codecs that other products use (matrix)?

- - how easy is it for user to get the `right' codec for their call? Is
it automatic (Skype has dynamic selection of codec based on bandwidth,
many free software products don't do this)

- - which solutions support NAT traversal? Is every permutation of NAT
and firewall environment tested? ICE/STUN/TURN is good for this, but
client software support is not always 100% (e.g. Jitsi supports ICE with
Jabber, but not with SIP. Lumicall supports ICE, but there are some
shortcomings, just look for the FIXMEs in the code to find out what they
are)

- - how should users register for a truly `Free' VoIP network? Virtually
all existing clients require users to both choose a provider and set up
a SIP account, and it is always more difficult than setting up Skype

- - if there are many independent providers and small businesses running
their own private VoIP, and the client software does somehow allow the
users to connect to their chosen provider, they could be left in a
little island (that is often the case today). How can they easily
interconnect to users with different providers? This is one of the
questions I've been trying to solve with my `Federated VoIP' pages:
http://www.opentelecoms.org/federated-voip

- - what solutions are suitable for both corporate and private use? A
lasting solution must be universal. Microsoft now has both the
corporate domain (Lync) and consumer (Skype) and will most likely try to
join them together more closely, and then do their usual trick of
bastardizing the protocol and locking out alternative solutions.
Given the existing widespread use of Skype, this is scary stuff.

[Sam Tuke]

Hi Daniel,

Post by Daniel Pocock
I'm not sure if I can reply to all the lists on CC, but would it be
possible to set up a dedicated list for this initiative, or could I
offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?

The testing event that we ran was originally planned as a one-off event.
However, there is still much work to be done on this issue, and there does
seem to be quite a lot of interest.

We (FSFE) are happy to provide a new mailing list for Free Software telephony
type discussion. Would you be happy to administer such a list? It would run
mailman (quickML is not a good solution in my experience, though we support
this also). How about free-telephony at lists.fsfe.org?

Would the list be for generic discussion, or coordination of a specific task?
Do you already have some initial list members in mind? It could be a good
place to coordinate more testing sprints.

Post by Daniel Pocock
Microsoft now has both the
corporate domain (Lync) and consumer (Skype) and will most likely try to
join them together more closely, and then do their usual trick of
bastardizing the protocol and locking out alternative solutions.
Given the existing widespread use of Skype, this is scary stuff.

Agreed!

Sam.
--
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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[Daniel Pocock]

Post by Sam Tuke
Hi Daniel,

Post by Daniel Pocock
I'm not sure if I can reply to all the lists on CC, but would it
be possible to set up a dedicated list for this initiative, or
could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org
?

The testing event that we ran was originally planned as a one-off
event. However, there is still much work to be done on this issue,
and there does seem to be quite a lot of interest.

I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the
upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to
(try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things
didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day

http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Post by Sam Tuke
We (FSFE) are happy to provide a new mailing list for Free Software
telephony type discussion. Would you be happy to administer such a
list? It would run

Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

Post by Sam Tuke
mailman (quickML is not a good solution in my experience, though we
support this also). How about free-telephony at lists.fsfe.org?

Some people don't like the term telephony, they feel it is
restrictive. Real-time communications (RTC) is more generic. The
list could be called free-rtc, as long as the long description in the
mailman index has the full details, e.g. 'Genuinely free and open
Real-Time Communications (RTC), encompassing VoIP, IM and other
distributed applications'

Post by Sam Tuke
Would the list be for generic discussion, or coordination of a
specific task?

The `Skype Replacement' headline seems to have stirred up interest.
It is always good to have a goal in mind. The list could be formed
with the goal `to enable discussion among people who aspire to see
genuinely free and open standards for real-time communications become
the dominant paradigm, displacing scary proprietary platforms like
Skype and Viber'

Post by Sam Tuke
Do you already have some initial list members in mind? It could be
a good place to coordinate more testing sprints.

Yes, I will email some of the key people behind other VoIP products
and ask them to support this. Not all of them are FSF members, but it
is OK for them to use the list too?


As for the next steps, I think the min-DebConf and FOSDEM (Feb 2013)
are prime opportunities to take further steps. I am submitting a talk
proposal on this for FOSDEM, and I would be really interested to know
if anyone from FSFE would like to support that or be involved.

[Sam Tuke]

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the
upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen
to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many
things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I
can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Post by Daniel Pocock
Some people don't like the term telephony, they feel it is
restrictive. Real-time communications (RTC) is more generic. The
list could be called free-rtc, as long as the long description in
the mailman index has the full details, e.g. 'Genuinely free and
open Real-Time Communications (RTC), encompassing VoIP, IM and
other distributed applications'

Sounds good to me (so long as it doesn't get confused with webrtc).

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I will email some of the key people behind other VoIP
products and ask them to support this. Not all of them are FSF
members, but it is OK for them to use the list too?

Yes that's absolutely fine. FSF and FSFE are separate sister
organisations, by the way :)

Post by Daniel Pocock
As for the next steps, I think the min-DebConf and FOSDEM (Feb
2013) are prime opportunities to take further steps. I am
submitting a talk proposal on this for FOSDEM, and I would be
really interested to know if anyone from FSFE would like to support
that or be involved.

What kind of support do you have in mind? Promotion, or a co-speaker,
or something else?

Best,

Sam.

- --
Sam Tuke
Campaign Manager
Free Software Foundation Europe
IM : samtuke at jabber.fsfe.org
Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org
Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org

[Daniel Pocock]

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the
upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite
keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so
many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is
at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing
this initiative to the next stage:

https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc

There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in
February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony
devroom co-ordinators.

For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off
MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step
closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar
steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/

[Daniel Pocock]

FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication,
micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at
FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the
FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative

Here is an interview:

https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-and-simon-tennant-and-evan-prodromou-and-daniel-constantin-mierla-and-emil-ivov/

and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):

https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/

Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for
the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm
quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about
why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software
Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype
is at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM
in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and
telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing
off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one
step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take
similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/

[Daniel Pocock]

I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and
I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day.
It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work
at a distance sadly.

Anna, have you tried using a TURN server to relay the calls over NAT?
You will need to check that Pidgin supports TURN - Jitsi definitely
supports it

There are two TURN servers that I have packaged on Debian, for example:

http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=resiprocate-turn-server
http://packages.debian.org/sid/turnserver

and one of them is now in Ubuntu too:
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+package/resiprocate-turn-server

You can build either of them from source on many other platforms

Best
Anna
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication,
micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at
FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the
FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-and-simon-tennant-and-evan-prodromou-and-daniel-constantin-mierla-and-emil-ivov/
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for
the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm
quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about
why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software
Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype
is at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM
in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and
telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing
off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one
step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take
similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/

Post by Sam Tuke
_______________________________________________
Manchester mailing list
Manchester at lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester

[Anna Morris]

hum - see it sound so very complicated :S I just like to advance to go if
you know what I mean. I will look into it :)

Best

Anna

Post by Daniel Pocock

I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam

and

I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day.
It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work
at a distance sadly.

Anna, have you tried using a TURN server to relay the calls over NAT?
You will need to check that Pidgin supports TURN - Jitsi definitely
supports it
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=resiprocate-turn-server
http://packages.debian.org/sid/turnserver
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+package/resiprocate-turn-server
You can build either of them from source on many other platforms

Best
Anna
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Daniel Pocock <daniel at pocock.com.au>
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication,
micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at
FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the
FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative

https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-and-simon-tennant-and-evan-prodromou-and-daniel-constantin-mierla-and-emil-ivov/

https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for
the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm
quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about
why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software
Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype
is at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM
in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and
telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing
off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one
step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take
similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/

Post by Sam Tuke
_______________________________________________
Manchester mailing list
Manchester at lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester

[Anna Morris]

hi all, haven't been following this overly, though I was at the event. I
have been playing around today with google hangouts, While they are not
free software, they are atleast made by a company who has some involvement
with free software. On my OS, kxstudio, there is a great script based
screen recording system - I have been recording the hangouts with great
success.

I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and
I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day.
It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work
at a distance sadly.

Best

Anna

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication,
micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at
FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the
FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-and-simon-tennant-and-evan-prodromou-and-daniel-constantin-mierla-and-emil-ivov/
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for
the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm
quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about
why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software
Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype
is at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM
in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and
telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing
off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one
step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take
similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/
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_______________________________________________
Manchester mailing list
Manchester at lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester

[Michael Dorrington]

Post by Anna Morris
hi all, haven't been following this overly, though I was at the event. I
have been playing around today with google hangouts, While they are not
free software,

I respectful ask that people don't make posts to the Manchester Free
Software mailing list recommending proprietary software, even in the
form of 'Web Apps' running non-free non-trivial Javascript on the
client's machine, that is, they are non-free programs. For more
information see these articles:

"No, You Won't See Me on Facebook, Google Plus, nor Skype"
<http://www.ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/11/24/google-plus.html>

"The JavaScript Trap"
<http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html>

Regards,
Mike.
Chair, MFS.
--
FSF member #9429
http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=9429
http://www.fsf.org/about
"The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide
mission to promote computer user freedom and to defend the rights of all
free software users."

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[Andreas Tolf Tolfsen]

I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and I
tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It
worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a
distance sadly.

You guys might want to check out the WebRTC specification that enables you to
do peer-to-peer connections from inside the browser. There was much talk about
this on HN the other day.

Of course it still needs an implementation to be useful in any way. If someone
feels called to work on a free software web-based communication solution, I
think that would be a very good starting point.

[Daniel Pocock]

Post by Andreas Tolf Tolfsen

I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and I
tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It
worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a
distance sadly.

You guys might want to check out the WebRTC specification that enables you to
do peer-to-peer connections from inside the browser. There was much talk about
this on HN the other day.
Of course it still needs an implementation to be useful in any way. If someone
feels called to work on a free software web-based communication solution, I
think that would be a very good starting point.

It was just in slashdot the other day too:

http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/02/04/1944217/firefox-and-chrome-can-talk-to-each-other

It was discussed at FOSDEM in various places

Some of the infrastructure for P2P (e.g. the SIP RELOAD spec) has been
discussed on the FreedomBox group:

http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/freedombox-discuss/2013-February/005103.html

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Post by Andreas Tolf Tolfsen
Of course it still needs an implementation to be useful in any way. If someone
feels called to work on a free software web-based communication solution, I
think that would be a very good starting point.

Yes, it needs encryption and it needs to work even in the case where
both parties are behind a proxy.

[Daniel Pocock]

Just following up about FOSDEM, as I would be interested in chatting
in person with anybody who is particularly keen on the hunt for a
Skype alternative.

In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

Post by Daniel Pocock
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time
communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are
coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns
that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype
alternative
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-and-simon-tennant-and-evan-prodromou-and-daniel-constantin-mierla-and-emil-ivov/
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject
for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps
I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have
about why so many things didn't work during the tests on
Software Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing
Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at
FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and
telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are
killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into
Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff.
Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in
the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/

[james riley]

Apologies to those who are getting this 2ce since Gmail doesn't seem
to handle replying to just mailing lists.

I'm suddenly very interested in a Skype alternative since for a couple
of weeks I'm likely to see my supervisor by Skype. Undesirable. (But
at least I can use uni hardware that's already dirtied by its presence
:P) Is there an alternative that works well on GNU/Linux & Windows and
is incredibly painless, since I'll have to persuade 2 windows users to
install something else.

It's probably only a shot to nothing since I'm likely to get a "but I
don't like change" response.

On the gripping hand, I might be able to wean my parents off the idea
of skype...


James R

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
Just following up about FOSDEM, as I would be interested in chatting
in person with anybody who is particularly keen on the hunt for a
Skype alternative.
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

Post by Daniel Pocock
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time
communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are
coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns
that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype
alternative
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-and-simon-tennant-and-evan-prodromou-and-daniel-constantin-mierla-and-emil-ivov/
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject
for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps
I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have
about why so many things didn't work during the tests on
Software Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule

Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this
talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.

Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing
Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.

Post by Sam Tuke

Post by Daniel Pocock
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.

I'll get that set up.

Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at
FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and
telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are
killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into
Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff.
Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in
the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year-in-favour-of-skype-50009702/

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_______________________________________________
Fellowship-uk mailing list
Fellowship-uk at lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/fellowship-uk

[Dave Love]

Post by james riley
Apologies to those who are getting this 2ce since Gmail doesn't seem
to handle replying to just mailing lists.
I'm suddenly very interested in a Skype alternative since for a couple
of weeks I'm likely to see my supervisor by Skype. Undesirable. (But
at least I can use uni hardware that's already dirtied by its presence
:P) Is there an alternative that works well on GNU/Linux & Windows and
is incredibly painless, since I'll have to persuade 2 windows users to
install something else.

I'm not sure whether it's relevant, but:

As I understand it, the JANET video conferencing service ("access grid")
is usable with free software originating in the old MBONE stuff from
UCL, and now <https://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/accessgrid/>.
However, I've had no need of AG since our VC room with proprietary
software was scrapped, so I can't vouch for it. AG has non-trivial
notworking issues, which presumably rule it out for general use, but
major universities are likely to have that sorted. AG is, or was,
supported at Manchester; perhaps an expert is listening?

[Mike Jones]

Short contribution... I use Access Grid on a weekly basis. It is essentially a collection of conferencing tools and a means to share connection details thereof. It uses vic and rat (audio and video) -- tools with GUIs built using tk-tcl -- and other non-essential tools built on jabber protocols etc. The AG tooling assumed multicast enabled networks but for point to point this is not necessary; and UK's AG infrastructure provided bridging on and off the mbone as well as support: this was provided by ja.net and formerly Manchester uni.
HTH
Mike J.

Post by james riley

Post by james riley
Apologies to those who are getting this 2ce since Gmail doesn't seem
to handle replying to just mailing lists.
I'm suddenly very interested in a Skype alternative since for a

couple

Post by james riley
of weeks I'm likely to see my supervisor by Skype. Undesirable. (But
at least I can use uni hardware that's already dirtied by its

presence

Post by james riley
:P) Is there an alternative that works well on GNU/Linux & Windows

and

Post by james riley
is incredibly painless, since I'll have to persuade 2 windows users

to

Post by james riley
install something else.

As I understand it, the JANET video conferencing service ("access grid")
is usable with free software originating in the old MBONE stuff from
UCL, and now <https://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/accessgrid/>.
However, I've had no need of AG since our VC room with proprietary
software was scrapped, so I can't vouch for it. AG has non-trivial
notworking issues, which presumably rule it out for general use, but
major universities are likely to have that sorted. AG is, or was,
supported at Manchester; perhaps an expert is listening?
_______________________________________________
Fsuk-manchester mailing list
Fsuk-manchester at nongnu.org
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester

[Matthias Kirschner]

Post by Daniel Pocock
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend
your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.

Cheers,
Matthias

[Anna Morris]

am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same
server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in
different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service
like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why
though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service
like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess
all the info helps :)

Post by Matthias Kirschner

Post by Daniel Pocock
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend
your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator
FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t [phone] [phone]
Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner)
Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk
_______________________________________________
Manchester mailing list
Manchester at lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester

[Daniel Pocock]

Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us know if it works?

Post by Anna Morris
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same
server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in
different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service
like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why
though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service
like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess
all the info helps :)

Post by Matthias Kirschner

Post by Daniel Pocock
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the

session

Post by Matthias Kirschner

Post by Daniel Pocock
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month,

and

Post by Matthias Kirschner

Post by Daniel Pocock
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who

may

Post by Matthias Kirschner

Post by Daniel Pocock
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend
your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German

Coordinator

Post by Matthias Kirschner
FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t [phone]

[phone]

Post by Matthias Kirschner
Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner)
Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk
_______________________________________________
Manchester mailing list
Manchester at lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester

--
www.ethical-pets.co.uk - The pet shop thats *all sorts *of ethical!

-------------- next part --------------
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[Steffi Tinder]

Hi!

Post by Daniel Pocock
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us know if it works?

I have tried that and I couldn't get it working :( The error was
something like "Could not establish connection (ICE failed)". We used
different combinations of servers and protocols and we definitely tried
with both using the same server (gmail in that case).

Hope that helps,

Stefanie

Post by Daniel Pocock
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts
on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we
were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped
as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont
tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few
pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway -
it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner <mk at fsfe.org
* Daniel Pocock <daniel at pocock.com.au

Post by Daniel Pocock
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at

the session

Post by Daniel Pocock
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this

month, and

Post by Daniel Pocock
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE

who may

Post by Daniel Pocock
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend
your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator
FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t [phone]
<tel:%2B49-30-27595290> [phone] <tel:%2B49-1577-1780003>
Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk <http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk>) - Contact
(fsfe.org/about/kirschner <http://fsfe.org/about/kirschner>)
Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk
_______________________________________________
Manchester mailing list
Manchester at lists.fsfe.org <mailto:Manchester at lists.fsfe.org>
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
_______________________________________________
Fsuk-manchester mailing list
Fsuk-manchester at nongnu.org
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester

[Anna Morris]

hum, well I am sure sam and I will try that at some point with the fsfe
server and see how we go - I am aware vaguely as to why this is so
difficult, but at the same time, I don?t see how cisco have managed to do
it as it sounds like the same thing. I always figured it was simply the use
of a shared server/group of servers that made it work - but it seems not.

Anna

Post by Daniel Pocock
Hi!
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us

Post by Daniel Pocock
know if it works?

I have tried that and I couldn't get it working :( The error was something
like "Could not establish connection (ICE failed)". We used different
combinations of servers and protocols and we definitely tried with both
using the same server (gmail in that case).
Hope that helps,
Stefanie

Post by Daniel Pocock
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts
on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we
were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped
as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont
tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few
pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway -
it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner <mk at fsfe.org
* Daniel Pocock <daniel at pocock.com.au

Post by Daniel Pocock
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at

the session

Post by Daniel Pocock
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this

month, and

Post by Daniel Pocock
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd

just

Post by Daniel Pocock
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE

who may

Post by Daniel Pocock
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of

carrying

Post by Daniel Pocock
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend
your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator
FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t [phone]
<tel:%2B49-30-27595290> [phone] <tel:%2B49-1577-1780003>
Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk <http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk>) - Contact
(fsfe.org/about/kirschner <http://fsfe.org/about/**kirschner<http://fsfe.org/about/kirschner>

Post by Daniel Pocock
)

Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk
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[Daniel Pocock]

If you ask on the Jitsi users list they may be able to give you a TURN server name and credentials you can test against (to fix the ICE error) and if that works, it would not be too hard to set up a local TURN server on the same box running the Jabber server.

Many of the commercial products come preconfigured to use their own relay servers, so you don't normally see these details. Future versions of Jitsi and Lumicall are likely to have stronger abilities to discover such things automatically.

Post by Anna Morris
hum, well I am sure sam and I will try that at some point with the fsfe
server and see how we go - I am aware vaguely as to why this is so
difficult, but at the same time, I don?t see how cisco have managed to do
it as it sounds like the same thing. I always figured it was simply the use
of a shared server/group of servers that made it work - but it seems not.
Anna
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Steffi Tinder

Post by Daniel Pocock
Hi!
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us

Post by Daniel Pocock
know if it works?

I have tried that and I couldn't get it working :( The error was

something

Post by Daniel Pocock
like "Could not establish connection (ICE failed)". We used different
combinations of servers and protocols and we definitely tried with

both

Post by Daniel Pocock
using the same server (gmail in that case).
Hope that helps,
Stefanie

Post by Daniel Pocock
Anna Morris <say.hello.to
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both

accounts

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not

when we

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber

shaped

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they

wont

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few
pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them.

Anyway -

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner <mk at fsfe.org
* Daniel Pocock <daniel at pocock.com.au

Post by Daniel Pocock
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance

at

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
the session

Post by Daniel Pocock
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof

this

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
month, and

Post by Daniel Pocock
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge

crowd

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
just

Post by Daniel Pocock
appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with

FSFE

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
who may

Post by Daniel Pocock
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of

carrying

Post by Daniel Pocock
forward the momentum from Sunday's session?

I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I

can

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
attend
your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they

plan to.

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
Cheers,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator
FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t [phone]
<tel:%2B49-30-27595290> [phone]

<tel:%2B49-1577-1780003>

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk <http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk>) -

Contact

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
(fsfe.org/about/kirschner

<http://fsfe.org/about/**kirschner<http://fsfe.org/about/kirschner>

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
)

Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk
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Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Daniel Pocock
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[Mirko Boehm]

Hi,

am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)

this is usually a case of problems of NAT traversal. Jabber uses STUN [1] servers for that, IIRC. Essentially a Jabber server needs a little more setup to pass through WIFI access points et cetera for video chat.

Cheers,

Mirko.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STUN

[MJ Ray]

[...] could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
http://lists.opentelecoms.org

"Please activate JavaScript in your web browser" - could you please
make that site useful without running mystery code in our browsers?

A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under
the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative [...]

Maybe, but I saw nothing on opentelecoms to say what copyright licence
it's under (go Expat-style?), how to submit improvements, or even who
to contact about it. Is it yours? Might be worth fixing those.

Hope that helps,

[Daniel Pocock]

Post by MJ Ray

[...] could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
http://lists.opentelecoms.org

"Please activate JavaScript in your web browser" - could you please
make that site useful without running mystery code in our browsers?

Have you tried contacting the sympa package maintainer directly?
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=sympa;dist=unstable

or can you suggest an alternative list manager? I felt mailman wasn't
quite capable of virtual hosting as easily as sympa.

Post by MJ Ray

A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under
the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative [...]

Maybe, but I saw nothing on opentelecoms to say what copyright licence
it's under (go Expat-style?), how to submit improvements, or even who
to contact about it. Is it yours? Might be worth fixing those.

Yes, it is all material I have written and it could be improved with
such details. I'm contemplating a move to Moin (or running Moin in
parallel) so other people can participate - have you worked with Moin,
Drupal or any other framework that you think is suitable?

[MJ Ray]

Daniel Pocock <daniel at pocock.com.au>

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by MJ Ray

Post by Daniel Pocock
http://lists.opentelecoms.org

"Please activate JavaScript in your web browser" - could you please
make that site useful without running mystery code in our browsers?

Have you tried contacting the sympa package maintainer directly?
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=sympa;dist=unstable

It's already there:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=320681#5
- I think it says it's gone upstream, but not where.

Post by Daniel Pocock
or can you suggest an alternative list manager? I felt mailman wasn't
quite capable of virtual hosting as easily as sympa.

Well, it's been a while since I test-drove them all and I thought they
all sucked in some way, but I know mlmmj will virtual-host, and
there's also enemies-of-carlotta, quickml, schleuder and smartlist.

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by MJ Ray

Post by Daniel Pocock
A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under
the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative [...]

Maybe, but I saw nothing on opentelecoms to say what copyright licence
it's under (go Expat-style?), how to submit improvements, or even who
to contact about it. Is it yours? Might be worth fixing those.

Yes, it is all material I have written and it could be improved with
such details. I'm contemplating a move to Moin (or running Moin in
parallel) so other people can participate - have you worked with Moin,
Drupal or any other framework that you think is suitable?

I've worked with Moin and Drupal a little. I lean towards a wiki like
Moin, but some wikis (mediawiki!) seem to be a bit fiddly to set up
right, based on how many people make a horlicks of it. The problem
with any system is how to "let the right one in" and accept
contributions without overloading the admins or locking people out
unnecessarily with eyetests or similar. Moin seems to have good basic
ideas at http://www.moinmo.in/AntiSpamFeatures although it also
discusses some silly ideas like Javascript and Akismet.

Regards,