Discussion:
Free Software "cloud computing"
Lucile Falgueyrac
2014-02-12 14:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi everyone

Lately I'm reading lots of things about "open source cloud computing".
In press releases of press articles, no one really ever explain what it
means, and why it is important.

Do you know more about it? Do you have concrete examples?
What can be the advantages in term of freedom (could those "clouds" be
interoperable for example?) Is there already some standardisation going
on? The normal problems of SaaS remain, don't they?

Thanks for sharing your insights

Lucile
--
Lucile Falgueyrac - Free Software Foundation Europe
FSFE, Sch?nhauser Allee 6/7, 10119 Berlin
XMPP : lucile.falg at jabber.fsfe.org

Support FSFE! https://fsfe.org/

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Vicen Rodriguez
2014-02-12 14:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lucile,

I think "open source cloud computing" is used, at least in most of the
cases, as a short way to say "open source software for building private
and public clouds". OpenStack (http://www.openstack.org/) is, maybe, the
main example of that.
Do you think there is any other meaning for that expression?

Best regards

Vicen
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
Hi everyone
Lately I'm reading lots of things about "open source cloud computing".
In press releases of press articles, no one really ever explain what it
means, and why it is important.
Do you know more about it? Do you have concrete examples?
What can be the advantages in term of freedom (could those "clouds" be
interoperable for example?) Is there already some standardisation going
on? The normal problems of SaaS remain, don't they?
Thanks for sharing your insights
Lucile
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Lucile Falgueyrac
2014-02-12 15:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vicen Rodriguez
I think "open source cloud computing" is used, at least in most of the
cases, as a short way to say "open source software for building private
and public clouds". OpenStack (http://www.openstack.org/ ) is, maybe,
the main example of that.
Do you think there is any other meaning for that expression?
Well, I often see it in the context of pubic bodies, but it fits with
your explanation. For example:

https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/news/improve-it-security-ep-demands-open-source

So it would mean a "private cloud" at the scale of their institutions
(European Parliament..) ? Self hosted free software cloud solutions
would be more appropriate then..

To answer my own question, I found something about standardisation:
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/news/etsi-open-source-clouds-worth-considering

Lucile
--
Lucile Falgueyrac - Free Software Foundation Europe
FSFE, Sch?nhauser Allee 6/7, 10119 Berlin
XMPP : lucile.falg at jabber.fsfe.org

Support FSFE! https://fsfe.org/

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Daniel Pocock
2014-02-12 15:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
Post by Vicen Rodriguez
I think "open source cloud computing" is used, at least in most of the
cases, as a short way to say "open source software for building private
and public clouds". OpenStack (http://www.openstack.org/ ) is, maybe,
the main example of that.
Do you think there is any other meaning for that expression?
Well, I often see it in the context of pubic bodies, but it fits with
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/news/improve-it-security-ep-demands-open-source
So it would mean a "private cloud" at the scale of their institutions
(European Parliament..) ? Self hosted free software cloud solutions
would be more appropriate then..
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/news/etsi-open-source-clouds-worth-considering
It can mean a lot of things

When people talk about Gmail as a cloud service, then the open source
alternative may just be an instance of Squirrelmail running on a hosted
server. Some people may use the word "cloud" in a very general sense
and describe their mail server as an private cloud service powered by
free software.

Then there are dedicated IaaS solutions (like XCP and OpenStack).

One of the aims of the users of these services is to treat them as
commodities: so somebody could start running their business on an
OpenStack cloud operated by an ISP but they could migrate all their
application images into OpenStack on private hardware in future. It is
not so much about federation as it about avoiding vendor lock in (like
with document formats)
J.B. Nicholson-Owens
2014-02-13 01:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
Lately I'm reading lots of things about "open source cloud computing".
In press releases of press articles, no one really ever explain what it
means, and why it is important.
That's because what's being offered is often purposefully unclear so the
organization making the offer can change service terms without tying
themselves down to something one can hold against them later. The usual
framing of the issue is narrowed so user convenience is paramount and
user's software freedom is left out entirely. There's typically no
mention of the freedoms would-be users must give up in exchange. What
the services seem to have in common is using programs that qualify as
"open source" to provide a service as a substitute for software one
probably ought to run themselves instead. But you'll never get a copy of
the complete corresponding source code for those programs, only those
within the service provider's organization will.
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
Do you know more about it? Do you have concrete examples?
I think the FSF's many papers and remarks on both "open source" and
"cloud computing" do a good job of explaining both terms.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComputing

Any remotely hosted service on a computer one does not own would serve
as an example here: email hosting service, calendar sharing service, web
hosting service, any file hosting service, the list goes on and on. Of
course, the details of what one intends to host determine the relevant
threats; not all hosting services pose problems for all uses.

For a few years Richard Stallman has been giving talks about how
"digital inclusion" can be a bad thing. In these talks he outlines
classes of major problems quite well and his classification of threats
address your questions. I recall one such RMS talk from 11 October 2011
-- http://audio-video.gnu.org/video/stallman-sciencespo-freesociety.webm
-- I suggest finding this and other talks on audio-video.gnu.org.
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
What can be the advantages in term of freedom (could those "clouds" be
interoperable for example?)
The service owner's software freedom might be respected, depending on
the details, but:

1. The open source movement doesn't talk about software freedom. That's
part of the reason why that movement exists -- to not bring up software
freedom as an ethical issue because that movement's proponents think
such talk interferes with talking to businesses. See
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for
more on this.

2. It's unlikely that any remote service will respect a user's software
freedom or give the users a chance to know exactly which threats they
face in using the service. Such users are essentially handing the
service data without knowing how that data will be processed. Perhaps
the data will be shared without the user's knowledge? Perhaps the
service will misrepresent the user in some way? Perhaps information
about the use of the service will be shared in a way the user would not
approve of?
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
Is there already some standardisation going on?
Any standards I've read about focus on technical issues and on helping
service providers make it difficult for users to migrate off of the
service with their data intact.
Post by Lucile Falgueyrac
The normal problems of SaaS remain, don't they?
Yes, all the problems of giving one's data to be handled by someone
else's computer (software as a service substitute --
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html)
remain including:
- one can't be sure what happens to the data, regardless of what the
terms of service claim.
- one can't be sure what happens to the data (or records describing the
data) after the service relationship ends.
- one has (quite rightly) no control over the service provider's
computer -- there is no way to give multiple people complete and
exclusive control over someone else's computer.

The concept of owner's rights work against those who seek to have
someone else do their computing for them while retaining control of the
other person's computer. One can't justly demand control of someone
else's computer without tacitly supporting losing control of one's own
computer as well.

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