Discussion:
EU research funding + free software
Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
2014-06-22 16:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding
and free software:
https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/

My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small
project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume
that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?

regards,
Nikos
Andrés
2014-06-22 20:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Hello,
I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding
https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small
project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume
that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?
regards,
Nikos
_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at fsfeurope.org
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Dear Nikos,

I am subscribed to the mailing list but I am unsure that this message will get through to the list as I am a member of fsf but not fsfe.

Thank you very much for the link! I have worked in FP7 projects and EU projects before and this is a good introduction for me as I always took part as a low level scientist. And I now want to be more involved.

One of the projects I colaborated with is http://gwyddion.net/ they are a group of mainly two from CMI. But they are involved in a lot of diffferent projects which improves gwyddion in many ways. On the proposals and deliverables they clearly state that all software will be GPL. I think, as you propose, it is a good idea to get fsfe involved. But as the talk says, you need someone experienced on H2020 accounting and burocracy. So maybe have fsfe and another experienced partner or maybe have them use the funding to hire an experienced project manager/accountant.

Good luck!
Regards,
Andr?s Mu?iz-Piniella
--
Enviado desde mi tel?fono con K-9 Mail.
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Karsten Gerloff
2014-06-25 10:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nikos,

thanks for the question!
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Hello,
I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding
https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small
project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume
that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?
tl;dr: Participating in EU projects usually isn't an efficient way
for FSFE to achieve its goals. It makes sense for FSFE only when
the project is 100% aligned with what we're trying to do; and even
then, the administrative overhead is a big problem. We usually
don't participate in such projects unless there's a compelling
reason to do so.




FSFE has participated in a few FP6 and FP7 projects, e.g. SELF and
STACS. Like pretty much everybody else, we don't yet have any
experience yet with Horizon 2020 [1], which started only recently.

As far as I know, there have been some updates to the various
funding schemes, but they haven't fundamentally changed, so I'm
assuming that Horizon 2020 works mostly in the same way as FP7
did. I'm bound to find out more shortly.

When I'm talking about "EU projects" in this mail, I'm
referring to FP6 / FP7 / Horizon 2020. There's a bunch of other
unrelated funding schemes that are completely different.


We are frequently approached about becoming involved in EU
projects; but we rarely do. Participating in such a project only
makes sense for FSFE if the project is pretty much 100% aligned
with things we want to do anyway. That's rarely the case.

Under the rules of these projects, the EU pays up to 100% of the
staff time for the employees participating in the project, plus an
overhead rate that goes toward administrative work related to the
project. (That's if you're lucky. Under a lot of schemes, you only
get 75%.)

The overhead rate -- which I guess is what you refer to
when you say "secretarial work" -- goes toward handling the
paperwork.

And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. I hear that things are
supposed to have gotten slightly better with Horizon 2020, but
it's still *a lot*.

That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university
department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who
handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't
have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.


The heaviest administrative workload is handled by the project
coordinator, i.e. the leader of the consortium. When we
participated in EU projects in the past, we did so as a simple
partner in the consortium. That limits the paperwork somewhat, but
it's still significant.



The staff time that the EU pays for can be used only for
contributions to the project, both for working on the project's
substance, and for administration. Otherwise taxpayers would be
crying bloody murder about the abuse of public funds, and they'd
be right.

In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance
our activities adn achieve our goals.



Best regards,
Karsten


[1] The EC thought that "Horizon 2020" sounded sexier than "FP8".
--
Karsten Gerloff [ ] <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org]
President | | +49 176 9690 4298
Support software freedom! [http://fsfe.org/support]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).


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Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
2014-06-25 21:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi Nikos,
thanks for the question!
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Hello,
I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding
https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small
project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume
that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?
tl;dr: Participating in EU projects usually isn't an efficient way
for FSFE to achieve its goals. It makes sense for FSFE only when
the project is 100% aligned with what we're trying to do; and even
then, the administrative overhead is a big problem. We usually
don't participate in such projects unless there's a compelling
reason to do so.
[...]
Post by Karsten Gerloff
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance
our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten,
Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects,
on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the
paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal
entity to participate. The scope of horizon 2020 is so broad that
improvement of existing free software is certainly within it.

Moreover, such projects often require partnerships with universities
(with that I could help) something that would certainly help FSFE get
new members and free software contributions.

regards,
Nikos
Karsten Gerloff
2014-06-26 08:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance
our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten,
Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects,
on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the
paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal
entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it
always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone
else) were better off if they participated through the university
or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
The scope of horizon 2020 is so broad that improvement of
existing free software is certainly within it
No doubt. Actually, I hope that we can engage in a few projects in
the years ahead. But as I explained in my earlier mail, there are
more effective ways for FSFE to achieve its goals.


Best regards,
Karsten
--
Karsten Gerloff [ ] <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org]
President | | +49 176 9690 4298
Support software freedom! [http://fsfe.org/support]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).


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Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
2014-06-26 12:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance
our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten,
Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects,
on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the
paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal
entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it
always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone
else) were better off if they participated through the university
or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Ok, so if I understand you comment, the projects that have no company
partners or university backing them up, there is no other way. It's
good to know that funding for free software projects is outside the
FSFE's goals.

regards,
Nikos
Michael Kesper
2014-06-26 13:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance
our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten,
Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects,
on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the
paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal
entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it
always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone
else) were better off if they participated through the university
or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Ok, so if I understand you comment, the projects that have no company
partners or university backing them up, there is no other way. It's
good to know that funding for free software projects is outside the
FSFE's goals.
I think you're misinterpreting here.
"Getting money from EU" may sound sexy at first, but to put it simple,
FSFE does not want to spend its scarce resources on filling out hundreds
of pages of paperwork.
This does not imply we wouldn't support free software projects with
reasonable work.

Best wishes
Michael
Karsten Gerloff
2014-06-27 06:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance
our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten,
Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects,
on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the
paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal
entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it
always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone
else) were better off if they participated through the university
or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Ok, so if I understand you comment, the projects that have no company
partners or university backing them up, there is no other way. It's
good to know that funding for free software projects is outside the
FSFE's goals.
I think you're misinterpreting here.
"Getting money from EU" may sound sexy at first, but to put it simple, FSFE
does not want to spend its scarce resources on filling out hundreds of pages
of paperwork.
This does not imply we wouldn't support free software projects with
reasonable work.
Right. Getting funding to Free Software projects is important; but
surprisingly often, EU projects aren't an effective or efficient
way of doing it.

That said, it seems that our work with the Commission over the
past years has borne some fruit. We had been pushing the EC to
address exactly the problem you're highlighting, and make it
easier for Free Software developers to participate without a legal
entity.

I discussed this again with an EC project officer, and he told me
that in Horizon 2020, natural persons can participate. I haven't
had a chance to review the documentation yet -- feel free to beat
me to it :-)



Best regards,
Karsten
--
Karsten Gerloff [ ] <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org]
President | | +49 176 9690 4298
Support software freedom! [http://fsfe.org/support]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).


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Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
2014-06-27 16:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Right. Getting funding to Free Software projects is important; but
surprisingly often, EU projects aren't an effective or efficient
way of doing it.
That said, it seems that our work with the Commission over the
past years has borne some fruit. We had been pushing the EC to
address exactly the problem you're highlighting, and make it
easier for Free Software developers to participate without a legal
entity.
I discussed this again with an EC project officer, and he told me
that in Horizon 2020, natural persons can participate. I haven't
had a chance to review the documentation yet -- feel free to beat
me to it :-)
Well, at least from my experience with FP7 the typical submission was
from a consortium of companies and universities, I wasn't aware of any
single company/university projects. Getting into such a consortium as
an individual may well be allowed by the EC now (I haven't checked,
although I have no reason to doubt you), but it is not practical. Even
if one would use his contacts from the previous projects (e.g. in my
case from my previous job as a researcher) they would sympathize but
would not allow him to join as an individual in such consortium. They
understand as anyone else that it is risky and close to impossible for
an individual to handle all the required paperwork correctly, and if
he does there would probably not be any time for work. Without
contacts already an individual is also doomed, as a big organization
and university will speak collaborate with another big organization or
university, not with Bob and John to make their project submissions. I
understand though that this would require FSFE to become something
that is currently not.

regards,
Nikos
Karsten Gerloff
2014-06-30 14:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nikos,
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Right. Getting funding to Free Software projects is important; but
surprisingly often, EU projects aren't an effective or efficient
way of doing it.
That said, it seems that our work with the Commission over the
past years has borne some fruit. We had been pushing the EC to
address exactly the problem you're highlighting, and make it
easier for Free Software developers to participate without a legal
entity.
I discussed this again with an EC project officer, and he told me
that in Horizon 2020, natural persons can participate. I haven't
had a chance to review the documentation yet -- feel free to beat
me to it :-)
Well, at least from my experience with FP7 the typical submission was
from a consortium of companies and universities, I wasn't aware of any
single company/university projects.
Participating as an individual wasn't an option in FP7.

I've looked around the EC's Horizon 2020 pages for a bit. The
first thing I've found is this:

http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/docs/h2020-funding-guide/grants/applying-for-funding/find-partners_en.htm

according to which the best options for individuals working on
their own are

- European Research Council (ERC) research grants ? support
frontier research by individual researchers and teams.

- Marie Sklodowska-Curie actions ? support researcher mobility.
Besides research funding, scientists have the possibility to
gain experience abroad and in the private sector, and to
complete their training with competences useful for their
careers.

The Curie grants did exist in FP7, too. Also, I haven't yet seen
what the EC says about individuals participating as part of a
consortium.

Interestingly, the EC apparently also plans to use prizes as an
incentive mechanism, though no details seem to be currently
available.



Best regards,
Karsten
--
Karsten Gerloff [ ] <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org]
President | | +49 176 9690 4298
Support software freedom! [http://fsfe.org/support]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).


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Fabian Keil
2014-06-26 13:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten Gerloff
Post by Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
Hello,
I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding
https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small
project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume
that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?
tl;dr: Participating in EU projects usually isn't an efficient way
for FSFE to achieve its goals. It makes sense for FSFE only when
the project is 100% aligned with what we're trying to do; and even
then, the administrative overhead is a big problem. We usually
don't participate in such projects unless there's a compelling
reason to do so.
[...]
Post by Karsten Gerloff
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. I hear that things are
supposed to have gotten slightly better with Horizon 2020, but
it's still *a lot*.
That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university
department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who
handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't
have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
Sounds like the FSFE should have a staffer for this.

Fabian
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Alessandro Rubini
2014-06-26 14:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fabian Keil
[...] As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. [...]
That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university
department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who
handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't
have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
Sounds like the FSFE should have a staffer for this.
Exactly.

I see a misunderstanding, that brought to Niko's other disappointed
reply ("I understand [...] funding for free software projects is
outside the FSFE's goals").

IIUC, Nikos' original proposal was to hire a person withing FSFE's
offices for this kind of paid work. Karsten's reply makes me thing he
perceived a request to help with current workforce (or participate in
a project as a project member).

It's difficult to calibrate thing properly, but I understand Nikos'
proposal: there are FS projects that may win EU funding if somebody
does the [later paid for] paperwork. But the project itself can't
hire a staff member for that, because of size contraints or legal
position or whatever. So FSFE may develop the expectise and host the
right people to do the paperwork on behalf of FS projects.

As said, it's difficult, because there may be too little or too much
work to grant an employee, because FSFE must be careful about
purely-free projects as opposed to mixed-license, and so on. But the
basic idea is sound. Sure it take a serious effort to get it started,
but the chances are high that the final effect for FS development and
adoption is positive.

Thank you all for this discussion, I find all points of view worthwhile.
/alessandro
Karsten Gerloff
2014-07-02 14:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Alessandro Rubini
Post by Fabian Keil
[...] As far as I know all EU projects include funds for
secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within
FSFE. What do you think?
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. [...]
That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university
department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who
handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't
have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
Sounds like the FSFE should have a staffer for this.
Exactly.
I see a misunderstanding, that brought to Niko's other disappointed
reply ("I understand [...] funding for free software projects is
outside the FSFE's goals").
IIUC, Nikos' original proposal was to hire a person withing FSFE's
offices for this kind of paid work. Karsten's reply makes me thing he
perceived a request to help with current workforce (or participate in
a project as a project member).
It's difficult to calibrate thing properly, but I understand Nikos'
proposal: there are FS projects that may win EU funding if somebody
does the [later paid for] paperwork. But the project itself can't
hire a staff member for that, because of size contraints or legal
position or whatever. So FSFE may develop the expectise and host the
right people to do the paperwork on behalf of FS projects.
the problem is that this wouldn't actually be allowed, at least not
under the FP7 rules I'm familiar with.

Formulated in the language used to talk about EU projects, Nikos'
scenario looks like this:

FSFE becomes an official partner in the project. FSFE then contracts
out the actual project work to the individual, and takes charge of
the administrative work.

The problem here is that under the rules, project partners
aren't allowed to subcontract out the actual project work (or only
up to ca. 20% of the total).

FSFE could hire the individual to work on the project. This is
something we might consider for projects where we really want to
participate as FSFE. But it's not a solution for the scenario
presented by Nikos, where FSFE takes on the administrative work
for unrelated (for lack of a better word) Free Software
projects.


I've gotten in touch with the European Commission and asked them
about ways for individuals to participate in Horizon 2020
projects. While I haven't had time to review the rules in detail,
the response is encouraging.

I was told that for natural persons, the funding rate would
generally be 100% + overhead - that's as good as it gets. You just
need a way to show that the personnel costs you're charging are
reasonable.

Here's what my contact said:


See the rules for participation at
http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/data/ref/h2020/legal_basis/rules_participation/h2020-rules-participation_en.pdf

especially:

(13) 'legal entity' means any natural person, or any legal
person created and recognised as such under national law,
Union law or international law, which has legal
personality and which may, acting in its own name,
exercise rights and be subject to obligations;

Article 7
Legal entities that may participate in actions

1. Any legal entity, regardless of its place of
establishment, or international organisation may
participate in an action provided that the conditions laid
down in this Regulation have been met, together with any
conditions laid down in the relevant work programme or
+work plan.
[...]

Article 32
Owners of SMEs and natural persons without a salary
The owners of SMEs who do not receive a salary, and other
natural persons who do not receive a salary, may charge
personnel costs on the basis of a unit cost.


Article 33
Unit costs
1. In accordance with Article 124 of Regulation (EU,
Euratom) No 966/2012, the Commission may establish methods
to determine unit costs based on:

(a) statistical data or similar objective means;

(b) auditable historical data of the participant.

2. Direct eligible personnel costs may be financed on the
basis of unit costs determined according to the
participant's usual cost accounting practices, provided
that they comply with the following cumulative criteria:

(a) they are calculated on the basis of the total actual
personnel costs recorded in the participant's general
accounts which may be adjusted by the participant on the
basis of budgeted or estimated elements according to the
conditions defined by the Commission;

(b) they comply with Articles 26 and 27;

(c) they ensure compliance with the non-profit requirement
and the avoidance of double funding of costs;

(d) they are calculated with due regard to Article 31.



Best regards,
Karsten
--
Karsten Gerloff [ ] <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org]
President | | +49 176 9690 4298
Support software freedom! [http://fsfe.org/support]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).


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