PDFReaders 2.0 - Your help is needed!

[Hannes Hauswedell]

Hi everyone,

we are currently preparing a major update to PDFReaders.org, adding:

* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform
* Free pdf reader recommendations for mobile platforms
* Free pdf browser plugin recommendations


BUT, we need some help with gathering/verifying information, deciding
what to recommend... Please have a look at the current Reader-Overview
[1] and the TODOs there.

Tell us...

* if you know any other Free pdf readers that we haven't listed, yet
(for any platform, but especially OSX and iOS)
* which Android reader you would recommend
* any other ideas you might have!


You can reach us via mail[2] or comment directly in the blog [3].
If you have an account at the fellowship-wiki[4] you can commit changes
to the overview directly.

Thanks for your help!
--
???????????????????????????????????????????
Best Regards, ? Free Software Foundation Europe ?? ?
Hannes Hauswedell ? German Team ?????? ?
? Coordinator for pdfreaders.org ?? ?
???????????????????????????????????????????
[1] https://wiki.fsfe.org/PDFreaders/todo2012/Overview-Page
[2] feedback(@)pdfreaders(.)org
[3] http://blogs.fsfe.org/h2/2012/05/21/pdfreaders-2-0-your-help-is-needed/
[4] https://wiki.fsfe.org/

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[Erik Albers]

Hi everyone,

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
we are currently preparing a major update to PDFReaders.org,
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

do you really think that is a good idea to have just one
recommendation for the auto-detected platform? I see some problems in
this practice, as it could be understood as an advertisement.
I mean, imagine you are an administrator of some ministry and then you
receive a mail from FSFE that you are actively doing advertisement for
an American company named Adobe Systems and that you should replace
this with a link to pdfreaders.org. Then you go there and you see an
advertisement for another program ...
I think I would maybe delete the link to Adobe but not link to another
advertisement. A platform however, that gives you the opportunity to
choose a pdfreader on your own seems neutral and will maybe receive
more support.

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
* Free pdf reader recommendations for mobile platforms * Free pdf
browser plugin recommendations
BUT, we need some help with gathering/verifying information,
deciding what to recommend... Please have a look at the current
Reader-Overview [1] and the TODOs there.

Again, I also think you save yourself a lot of work, if you do not
recommend a single solution :)
And even if you come to the point that there is a common sense which
program should be recommended, someone has to keep track of this. I
mean, in just half a year every program can be changed in total. Then
you need new discussions and decisions about changed programs and so
on ...

Just my 2 cents,
Erik

- --

Erik Albers [ ]
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ]
Policy Team [ ]
Your donation powers our work! [http://fsfe.org/donate/]

Contact me in < Deutsch/English/Espa?ol > via:
Mail eal at fsfe.org
Jabber eal at jabber.fsfe.org
Phone [phone]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).

[Hannes Hauswedell]

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
Hi everyone,

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
we are currently preparing a major update to PDFReaders.org,
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

do you really think that is a good idea to have just one
recommendation for the auto-detected platform?

Please join us on the pdf-readers list to discuss this, as we will lose
track of different discussions else!

Thank you!
--
???????????????????????????????????????????
Best Regards, ? Free Software Foundation Europe ?? ?
Hannes Hauswedell ? German Team ?????? ?
? Coordinator for pdfreaders.org ?? ?
???????????????????????????????????????????


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[MJ Ray]

Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell

Post by Erik Albers

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

do you really think that is a good idea to have just one
recommendation for the auto-detected platform?

Please join us on the pdf-readers list to discuss this, as we will lose
track of different discussions else!

Where do we find that? I guessed and tried
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/ and
http://pdfreaders.org/about.en.html but it's not listed on either.

Thanks,

[Hannes Hauswedell]

Post by MJ Ray
Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell

Post by Erik Albers

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

do you really think that is a good idea to have just one
recommendation for the auto-detected platform?

Please join us on the pdf-readers list to discuss this, as we will lose
track of different discussions else!

Where do we find that? I guessed and tried
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/ and
http://pdfreaders.org/about.en.html but it's not listed on either.
Thanks,

Sorry about that, the list is pdfreaders at lists.fsfe.? but you can just
send to feedback(@)pdfreaders.org that redirects to our list and allows
posting from non-members!
--
???????????????????????????????????????????
Best Regards, ? Free Software Foundation Europe ?? ?
Hannes Hauswedell ? German Team ?????? ?
? Coordinator for pdfreaders.org ?? ?
???????????????????????????????????????????

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[Heiki &quot;Repentinus&quot; Ojasild]

Post by MJ Ray
Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell

Post by Erik Albers

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

do you really think that is a good idea to have just one
recommendation for the auto-detected platform?

Please join us on the pdf-readers list to discuss this, as we will lose
track of different discussions else!

Where do we find that? ?I guessed and tried
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/ and
http://pdfreaders.org/about.en.html but it's not listed on either.

I suppose you will write to mk.


Cheers,

[MJ Ray]

Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
Sorry about that, the list is pdfreaders at lists.fsfe.? but you can just
posting from non-members!

OK, right, so as we can't actually join the discussion on the closed
pdfreaders list and the blog evilly locks out visually-impaired users,
can we just continue discussion on discussion@ please?

It works and I'd really welcome this being discussed openly.
pdfreaders.org is a great site and really useful in helping people
realise that the Microsoft/Adobe/... system is not the only one.

I would like to support Erik Albers's point that only offering a
single recommendation on the homepage defeats the recent work asking
people to stop the Adobe adverts;

- and also note that the viewing platform may not be the one we want a
recommendation for.


On the substance of https://wiki.fsfe.org/PDFreaders/todo2012/Overview-Page

Vindaloo still works fine on GNU/Linux - the frontend may not have
been updated since 2005, but the underlying Poppler library has, so
the app's kept improving in use. It isn't currently listed for "Free
Operating Systems" (why not?). I can't comment on OSX - I'd expect it
to work there, but I don't know of current OSX binaries for it.

Is there a download site with an AlternateReader binary with a current
certificate? 1.08(4) failed to install for me, giving an "Expired
Certificate" error.

The site probably shouldn't recommend Evince or Okular to someone not
using Gnome or KDE already, as it'll seem like a really big install.

Thanks for your work on this,
--
MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op.
http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer.
In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/

(PS - The blog is "protected by Dave\\\'s Spam Karma 2", which I first
condemned in 2006 by noting that if there's any Karma, "I suspect
Dave will be reincarnated as flame-roasted tinned meat soon"
http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2006/blogmoves#commentimg )

[ubsy]

Hi All,

Post by MJ Ray
Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
Sorry about that, the list is pdfreaders at lists.fsfe.? but you can just
posting from non-members!

OK, right, so as we can't actually join the discussion on the closed
pdfreaders list and the blog evilly locks out visually-impaired users,
I would like to support Erik Albers's point that only offering a
single recommendation on the homepage defeats the recent work asking
people to stop the Adobe adverts;

I'm too concerned about recommending only one option per OS. This would
cost the neutrality we are striving for (we want neutrality, don't we?).

I also would like to point out that there are some users who do not wish
to browse through a possibly long list of potential alternatives and
then choose one. There are some people out there who just want to use a
software that works (free software would be nice to have, of course).

Perhaps we could leave the list like it is and add a (rather tiny) link
to a recommendation. This way lazy users can just take that one.

Regards,

Phil

[Hannes Hauswedell]

Post by MJ Ray
Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
Sorry about that, the list is pdfreaders at lists.fsfe.? but you can just
posting from non-members!

OK, right, so as we can't actually join the discussion on the closed
pdfreaders list and the blog evilly locks out visually-impaired users,

No. This leads to many duplicate discussions, resulting in a lot of
frustration and wasted time on all sides[1] -- as this situation already
shows. If you want to discuss the future of pdfreaders in depth, you are
very welcome to join the pdfreaders list, please contact mk at fsfe!
If you do not want to do this, you can still write suggestions to
feedback at pdfreaders or edit the wiki directly, (e.g. adding Vindaloo to
GNU/Linux section). I will look into the blog's captcha, although I
tried posting multiple comments (even spam-like), and I was never asked
for one.
--
???????????????????????????????????????????
Best Regards, ? Free Software Foundation Europe ?? ?
Hannes Hauswedell ? German Team ?????? ?
? Coordinator for pdfreaders.org ?? ?
???????????????????????????????????????????

[1] and third parties annoyed by double posting to multiple lists.

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[Craig Errington]

Is there a reason for this list not being advertised anywhere? Even on
the listman pages?

Perhaps there'd be more people interested in the discussion? But like
others in this conversation, we didn't even know the list existed..

(Sorry to anyone who receives this twice..)

Post by Hannes Hauswedell

Post by MJ Ray
Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
Sorry about that, the list is pdfreaders at lists.fsfe.? but you can just
posting from non-members!

OK, right, so as we can't actually join the discussion on the closed
pdfreaders list and the blog evilly locks out visually-impaired users,

No. This leads to many duplicate discussions, resulting in a lot of
frustration and wasted time on all sides[1] -- as this situation already
shows. If you want to discuss the future of pdfreaders in depth, you are
very welcome to join the pdfreaders list, please contact mk at fsfe!
If you do not want to do this, you can still write suggestions to
feedback at pdfreaders or edit the wiki directly, (e.g. adding Vindaloo to
GNU/Linux section). I will look into the blog's captcha, although I
tried posting multiple comments (even spam-like), and I was never asked
for one.
--
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???????????????????????????????????????????
Best Regards, ? ? ? ? ? ?? Free Software Foundation Europe ? ??? ? ?
Hannes Hauswedell ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? German Team ? ? ? ? ? ??????? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Coordinator for pdfreaders.org ? ? ?? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???????????????????????????????????????????
[1] and third parties annoyed by double posting to multiple lists.
_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at fsfeurope.org
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion

[Heiki &quot;Repentinus&quot; Ojasild]

Post by Craig Errington
Is there a reason for this list not being advertised anywhere? Even on
the listman pages?

There is: This is not a discussion list, this is a list used to
coordinate the campaign. I.e., if you want access, you should be
prepared to work on the campaign, not just discuss matters.

Post by Craig Errington
Perhaps there'd be more people interested in the discussion? But like
others in this conversation, we didn't even know the list existed..

There have been opportunities to discuss the project on this list. See
the archives for Apr 17 and Jan 21. I do not mean it as a discussion
killer, but I can certainly understand why Hannes does not want to try
to keep track of several mailing lists.


Cheers,

[Hugo Roy]

Post by MJ Ray
OK, right, so as we can't actually join the discussion on the closed
pdfreaders list

https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/pdfreaders

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

+1

The current long list of readers is very confusing.

(I also think that the name pdfreaders.org is bit misleading since it
does not list the most popular pdf reader in the world but I guess
renaming it to free-pdfreaders.org is already too late...)

[Fioddor Superconcentrado]

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
* a more appealing and cleaner "home"-page, with *one
recommendation* for the auto-detected platform

From: Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.lindfors at iki.fi>
To: discussion at fsfeurope.org
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 01:46:32 +0300
+1

The current long list of readers is very confusing.

(I also think that the name pdfreaders.org is bit misleading since it
does not list the most popular pdf reader in the world but I guess
renaming it to free-pdfreaders.org is already too late...)



From: Fioddor

I don't like the idea of a single-product recomendation. FSFE should remain
AND LOOK LIKE neutral.
Neither a transparent auto-detection: people doing a selection for friends,
users surfing the web from their workplace, fast consultation on the go
(mobile set) looking for sw for the home system, ...).

I'd improve the long list turning it into a table with some criteria.
Filtering (e.g javascript) would also be welcome.
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[MJ Ray]

Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.lindfors at iki.fi>

Post by Timo Juhani Lindfors
(I also think that the name pdfreaders.org is bit misleading since it
does not list the most popular pdf reader in the world but I guess
renaming it to free-pdfreaders.org is already too late...)

I think you mean most common, not most popular... I've heard many of
its users swearing about it! They were quite happy to discover
alternatives... although it seems that some still use Acrobat
to fill out non-standard forms sometimes.

Regards,

[MJ Ray]

Hannes Hauswedell <h2 at fsfe.org>

Post by Hannes Hauswedell

Post by MJ Ray
OK, right, so as we can't actually join the discussion on the closed
pdfreaders list and the blog evilly locks out visually-impaired users,

No. This leads to many duplicate discussions, resulting in a lot of
frustration and wasted time on all sides[1] -- as this situation already
shows.

I had frustration and wasted time and had to double-post already,
before there was any discussion. As it looks like one of us will
have frustration and wasted time anyway, we might as well have it
with discussion rather than without! ;-)

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
If you do not want to do this, you can still write suggestions to
feedback at pdfreaders or edit the wiki directly, (e.g. adding Vindaloo to
GNU/Linux section).

It looks like I would have to pay to edit the wiki, so please take
the suggestions previously written.

Post by Hannes Hauswedell
I will look into the blog's captcha, although I tried posting
multiple comments (even spam-like), and I was never asked for one.

I can't explain that. Maybe it likes you and not me... and if it's
not querying spam-like comments, it doesn't sound like it is testing
for spam at all!

I think Spam Karma 2 has been broken for many years (I've yet to see
it work, at least) and is not fit for use. I suggest a combination of
BlogSpam.net and wp-spamfree (in a non-javascript configuration) as
better alternatives.

Hope that helps,

[Torsten Grote]

Post by MJ Ray
It looks like I would have to pay to edit the wiki

You don't. Please look here: http://wiki.fsfe.org/UserGuide#Guest_accounts

Regards,
Torsten
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[MJ Ray]

Torsten Grote <Torsten.Grote at fsfe.org>

Post by Torsten Grote

Post by MJ Ray
It looks like I would have to pay to edit the wiki

You don't. Please look here: http://wiki.fsfe.org/UserGuide#Guest_accounts

Oh! I suggest putting "Join as guest" on the top bar or a link to
that from the "Join" page instead of just the money request form.

Someone must have helped me with this before because I tried and got
"This email already belongs to somebody else" so now I have to email
someone instead because I don't have it on file and can't guess it.
Oh well!

Thanks anyway,

[Matthias Kirschner]

Here MJ Ray's suggestion to promote the guest accounts more on the
Fellowship wiki. What do you think: would it be better to have an
additional register guest account? Or should we have a "register", which
leads to a seperated page where you can either Join the Fellowship or
you can register a guest account for the wiki?

Regards,
Matthias

Post by MJ Ray
Torsten Grote <Torsten.Grote at fsfe.org>

Post by Torsten Grote

Post by MJ Ray
It looks like I would have to pay to edit the wiki

You don't. Please look here: http://wiki.fsfe.org/UserGuide#Guest_accounts

Oh! I suggest putting "Join as guest" on the top bar or a link to
that from the "Join" page instead of just the money request form.
Someone must have helped me with this before because I tried and got
"This email already belongs to somebody else" so now I have to email
someone instead because I don't have it on file and can't guess it.
Oh well!