Your input needed: Questions for panel w/ Eben Moglen, RMS, 4 MEPs

[Karsten Gerloff]

Hi everyone,

on July 9 at the Libre Software Meeting / RMLL in Brussels, we're
organising a big panel discussion on "Technology, Power and
Freedom":

http://fsfe.org/events/2013/rmll-2013.html

After the news about wide-ranging communications surveillance
we've heard in recent weeks, this topic is arguably even more
pressing than it was before. But we want to look at the long term:

What do we need to change in politics and technology today to
build a better world tomorrow?

For this discussion we're bringing some of the Free Software
movement's leading minds together with the people who represent us
in the European Parliament. We're extremely happy to have a list
of first-rate participants:

Eben Moglen (Columbia University / Software Freedom Law Center)
Richard M Stallman (FSF)
Judith Sargentini (MEP Greens/EFA)
Marc Tarabella (MEP S&D - tbc)
Nils Torvalds (MEP ALDE)
Ioannis A. Tsoukalas (MEP EPP)

I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are
your most urgent questions on technology and politics?

Please post your questions here, and we'll gather them and get
them to Brussels.

Thanks & best,
Karsten
--
Karsten Gerloff [ ] <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org]
President | | [phone]
Support software freedom! [http://fsfe.org/support]

Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).


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[Daniel Pocock]

Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi everyone,
on July 9 at the Libre Software Meeting / RMLL in Brussels, we're
organising a big panel discussion on "Technology, Power and
http://fsfe.org/events/2013/rmll-2013.html
After the news about wide-ranging communications surveillance we've
heard in recent weeks, this topic is arguably even more pressing
What do we need to change in politics and technology today to build
a better world tomorrow?
For this discussion we're bringing some of the Free Software
movement's leading minds together with the people who represent us
in the European Parliament. We're extremely happy to have a list of
Eben Moglen (Columbia University / Software Freedom Law Center)
Richard M Stallman (FSF) Judith Sargentini (MEP Greens/EFA) Marc
Tarabella (MEP S&D - tbc) Nils Torvalds (MEP ALDE) Ioannis A.
Tsoukalas (MEP EPP)
I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are your
most urgent questions on technology and politics?

I can think of various themes, maybe people can work some questions
around these, some of them would even be enough to justify a panel of
their own:

a) crypto-currencies (of which Bitcoin is only one example)

At first glance, it appears like a simple topic, but it is not.
Currency is fundamentally intertwined with concepts of power. It is
widely speculated that Saddam's decision to price Iraqi oil in EUR
rather than USD (and a similar attitude from Venezuela) prompted the
invasion to hunt for those WMDs that everybody now agrees he never had.

The power of the USD is having far-reaching effects: look at things
like the SWIFT payment system snooping scandal a few years ago, or
more recently the US has been pushing Swiss banks to disclose full
lists of their employees to US regulators. Many Swiss banks
(previously known for a commitment to privacy) have to operate some
kind of US branch or payment facility for handling US dollars and they
are now finding those arrangements have become indispensable, putting
them under immense pressure to comply with more and more US regulations.

However, the US powers haven't worked that way forever: early
Americans were vigorously opposed to the idea of a central bank. The
Federal Reserve, as it works today, only came into existence in 1913
after many previous attempts were tried and then discarded:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System#Timeline_of_central_banking_in_the_United_States

Should the EUR just copy USD associated behavior, power plays, etc or
is there an opportunity to be more innovative, introducing
crypto-currency concepts in a legal manner without the problems of
central banking?

b) Government communication technology

Why does the European parliament not switch to a secure email scheme,
e.g. PGP? Rather than using laws to change things, they should seek
to change the way people interact with Government and use that to set
an example.

How can independent Governments extend the same concept to social
media, e.g. dumping Facebook and using a federated platform?

c) the funding gap

Some of Eben's talks have been very accurate and also very motivating,
but the reality is developers need to eat. As we've heard from Mr
Snowden, the NSA pays quite well whereas many free software developers
feel undervalued or only do experiments in their spare time for
reasons of personal curiosity rather than to make a lasting solution.
Consequently many open source solutions are not "polished" in such a
way that the general public can or will use them.

The rates I see for open source development often fall far short of
the rates I see doing proprietary work in banks or defense projects.
Amongst those people who have political will or funding capacity, I've
often observed a failure to appreciate the benefit of paying the rates
of premium developers (those who make the most secure and reliable
code) - in some cases there seems to be an attitude that developers
are all the same and should be paid the same.

Things like crowdfunding get a lot of headlines but the reality is that
(a) lots of work is involved in the fundraising/publicity phase and
(b) crowd funding is more like a lottery, projects only succeed there
if they are lucky enough to get promoted in slashdot or mainstream media.

What is the solution? Can organisations (either government or private
sector) either provide direct funding or facilitate a more effective
crowdfunding effort? Can this be done without devaluing developers,
e.g. paying market rates rather than asking them to work for charity?

d) public perception

Before the Snowden scandal, a number of people asked me if I was
paranoid (e.g. for promoting ZRTP in Lumicall). Privacy scandals
happen all the time: just look at the phone hacking in the UK.
Despite all this clear evidence in broad daylight, people are just not
getting the message.

Is it a lost cause?

Or does money need to be invested to educate people?

Or is it better to focus on areas like small business where the owners
can be educated about the value of their data because they have a lot
more to lose?

Why is privacy more of a concern in places like Germany and largely
ignored in places like Australia?

[Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross]

Some responses to surveillance/censorship is if enough people all do it
at the same time then they can't stop you all. The message will get
though. They recognise that is ugly but don't think that the evil yuck
yuck (lock-in, monopoly, saas, spybook,etc) can be replaced. There
opinion is that the bad guys, ie gov would be winning by splitting
people up. Those not on spybook and suckers who are. That they admit/are
losing control by switching and so to show that they will not submit or
something, They will keep using spybook.

Hopefully I didn't forget anything or make mistakes.

My thought/question is: but how do you get all those people to do it
when they can kill the campaign off in the early days. Currently they
have been affectedly letting you do your campaigns like in the east but
that?s a false sense of err "security".

Thank you very much for this opportunity and all your work.

[Daniel Pocock]

Today's news probably adds weight to point (b) in my email from yesterday

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-leaks-us-bugging-european-allies

Post by Daniel Pocock

Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi everyone,
on July 9 at the Libre Software Meeting / RMLL in Brussels, we're
organising a big panel discussion on "Technology, Power and
http://fsfe.org/events/2013/rmll-2013.html
After the news about wide-ranging communications surveillance
we've heard in recent weeks, this topic is arguably even more
pressing than it was before. But we want to look at the long
What do we need to change in politics and technology today to
build a better world tomorrow?
For this discussion we're bringing some of the Free Software
movement's leading minds together with the people who represent
us in the European Parliament. We're extremely happy to have a
Eben Moglen (Columbia University / Software Freedom Law Center)
Richard M Stallman (FSF) Judith Sargentini (MEP Greens/EFA) Marc
Tarabella (MEP S&D - tbc) Nils Torvalds (MEP ALDE) Ioannis A.
Tsoukalas (MEP EPP)
I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are
your most urgent questions on technology and politics?

I can think of various themes, maybe people can work some
questions around these, some of them would even be enough to
a) crypto-currencies (of which Bitcoin is only one example)
At first glance, it appears like a simple topic, but it is not.
Currency is fundamentally intertwined with concepts of power. It
is widely speculated that Saddam's decision to price Iraqi oil in
EUR rather than USD (and a similar attitude from Venezuela)
prompted the invasion to hunt for those WMDs that everybody now
agrees he never had.
The power of the USD is having far-reaching effects: look at
things like the SWIFT payment system snooping scandal a few years
ago, or more recently the US has been pushing Swiss banks to
disclose full lists of their employees to US regulators. Many
Swiss banks (previously known for a commitment to privacy) have to
operate some kind of US branch or payment facility for handling US
dollars and they are now finding those arrangements have become
indispensable, putting them under immense pressure to comply with
more and more US regulations.
However, the US powers haven't worked that way forever: early
Americans were vigorously opposed to the idea of a central bank.
The Federal Reserve, as it works today, only came into existence in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System#Timeline_of_central_banking_in_the_United_States
Should the EUR just copy USD associated behavior, power plays, etc
or is there an opportunity to be more innovative, introducing
crypto-currency concepts in a legal manner without the problems of
central banking?
b) Government communication technology
Why does the European parliament not switch to a secure email
scheme, e.g. PGP? Rather than using laws to change things, they
should seek to change the way people interact with Government and
use that to set an example.
How can independent Governments extend the same concept to social
media, e.g. dumping Facebook and using a federated platform?
c) the funding gap
Some of Eben's talks have been very accurate and also very
motivating, but the reality is developers need to eat. As we've
heard from Mr Snowden, the NSA pays quite well whereas many free
software developers feel undervalued or only do experiments in
their spare time for reasons of personal curiosity rather than to
make a lasting solution. Consequently many open source solutions
are not "polished" in such a way that the general public can or
will use them.
The rates I see for open source development often fall far short
of the rates I see doing proprietary work in banks or defense
projects. Amongst those people who have political will or funding
capacity, I've often observed a failure to appreciate the benefit
of paying the rates of premium developers (those who make the most
secure and reliable code) - in some cases there seems to be an
attitude that developers are all the same and should be paid the
same.
Things like crowdfunding get a lot of headlines but the reality is
that (a) lots of work is involved in the fundraising/publicity
phase and (b) crowd funding is more like a lottery, projects only
succeed there if they are lucky enough to get promoted in slashdot
or mainstream media.
What is the solution? Can organisations (either government or
private sector) either provide direct funding or facilitate a more
effective crowdfunding effort? Can this be done without devaluing
developers, e.g. paying market rates rather than asking them to
work for charity?
d) public perception
Before the Snowden scandal, a number of people asked me if I was
paranoid (e.g. for promoting ZRTP in Lumicall). Privacy scandals
happen all the time: just look at the phone hacking in the UK.
Despite all this clear evidence in broad daylight, people are just
not getting the message.
Is it a lost cause?
Or does money need to be invested to educate people?
Or is it better to focus on areas like small business where the
owners can be educated about the value of their data because they
have a lot more to lose?
Why is privacy more of a concern in places like Germany and
largely ignored in places like Australia?
_______________________________________________ Discussion mailing
list Discussion at fsfeurope.org
https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion

[Andreas K. Foerster]

Post by Karsten Gerloff
I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are
your most urgent questions on technology and politics?

Let me put my question in a provocative way...
What's more to fear? Terrorism or antiterror measures?
I know which is more likely to affect me.


Building a better world for tomorrow?
Oh yeah, I can remember such promises:
https://archive.org/details/1984_1984_Apple.mov
[SIGH]

[Daniel Pocock]

Post by Andreas K. Foerster

Post by Karsten Gerloff
I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are
your most urgent questions on technology and politics?

Let me put my question in a provocative way...
What's more to fear? Terrorism or antiterror measures?

That is a deceptive question. The real question would be

"What's more to fear? Terrorism or Government surveillance that is
deceptively promoted as a way to fight terrorism?"

Post by Andreas K. Foerster
I know which is more likely to affect me.
Building a better world for tomorrow?
https://archive.org/details/1984_1984_Apple.mov
[SIGH]

[Andreas K. Foerster]

Post by Karsten Gerloff
What do we need to change in politics and technology today to
build a better world tomorrow?

In todays world large mega corporations often have even more
power than the politics.

Bruce Schneier describes the Internet today as a feudal system:
https://www.schneier.com/essay-430.html

[xdrudis]

Post by Karsten Gerloff
Hi everyone,
on July 9 at the Libre Software Meeting / RMLL in Brussels, we're
organising a big panel discussion on "Technology, Power and
http://fsfe.org/events/2013/rmll-2013.html
After the news about wide-ranging communications surveillance
we've heard in recent weeks, this topic is arguably even more
What do we need to change in politics and technology today to
build a better world tomorrow?

TAFTA comes to mind.

Today I've read headlines to the UE complaining to the USA that
allies don't spy each other.

Well do allies pact in secret ? Do they give privileged access
to friends instead of scrutiny in parliaments and press ?
Do you trust someone to spies on you to sell your new copyright
laws to lobbies ?

Or maybe DRM.

Sorry, I'm too asleep, but I d'ont really have information, knowledge
or time to help in something more concrete, I'm afraid.

[MJ Ray]

Post by Karsten Gerloff
I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are
your most urgent questions on technology and politics?

How do we overcome the dodgy politicians and corporations who are
pushing opt-out filtering for all internet connections with the
misleading "we must stop children accessing porn" arguments?

Thanks,

[Sam Liddicott]

Post by MJ Ray

Post by Karsten Gerloff
I'd like your input: What should we ask these people? What are
your most urgent questions on technology and politics?

How do we overcome the dodgy politicians and corporations who are
pushing opt-out filtering for all internet connections with the
misleading "we must stop children accessing porn" arguments?

You say: if that's the worst you have to worry about, doing parenting for
the parents, I think I will vote for a more serious minded politician who
will attend to things that can only be addressed that the national/regional
level.

Any further excuses are answered with: If you need to sell yourself to me,
you don't understand how representative democracy is supposed to work.

Sam

Post by MJ Ray
Thanks,
--
MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op
http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer.
In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/
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