Discussion:
Advocacy doesn’t work if you tell someone they’re wrong
Jelle Hermsen
2010-11-01 13:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi everybody,
I recently joined the fellowship and yesterday I wrote a blog post on my
new FSFE blog titled: Advocacy doesn?t work if you tell someone they?re
wrong
(http://blogs.fsfe.org/jelle/2010/10/31/advocacy-doesnt-work-if-you-tell-someone-theyre-wrong/ ).

Guido suggested I add a paragraph about this idea to the advocacy FAQ. I
don't want to do this without hearing what other people think about it,
because advocacy touches the core of what we're doing.

My post states that it's best to not talk about proprietary software too
much when you're trying to advocate free software. Pointing out the
problems of the proprietary software somebody uses might actually lead
them to dig there heels in, preventing them to be susceptible to any of
your good arguments.

I derived this idea from social psychology and I would love to hear what
you all think of it.

Best regards,
Jelle
Stephane Ascoet
2010-11-02 08:20:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jelle Hermsen
I derived this idea from social psychology and I would love to hear what
you all think of it.
Hi, I think you're right. We're facing the same issue while trying to convince people to stop meat consumption.
--
Sincerely, Stephane Ascoet
David Gerard
2010-11-02 07:50:54 UTC
Permalink
On 2 November 2010 08:20, Stephane Ascoet
Post by Stephane Ascoet
Post by Jelle Hermsen
I derived this idea from social psychology and I would love to hear what
you all think of it.
Hi, I think you're right. We're facing the same issue while trying to convince people to stop meat consumption.
Basically, people don't take advice. They give it - just as if it
worked or something - but there are almost no cases of anyone actually
taking advice. Ever.

This may be useful:

http://mindprod.com/ethics/persuasion.html


- d.
Sam Liddicott
2010-11-02 08:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ascoet
Post by Jelle Hermsen
I derived this idea from social psychology and I would love to hear what
you all think of it.
Hi, I think you're right. We're facing the same issue while trying to convince people to stop meat consumption.
Often I think it is a case of people valuing different goodnesses. A
person did not chose proprietary software for bad reasons, but generally
for reasons which when balanced seem good. Sometimes the reasons come
from a different perspectives which are often unassailable, but not
shared by both groups.

For example; with meat, I consider that I must eat some protein and ask:
which is most kind - to let the protein enjoy a few years life as a cow,
or to make it have a shorter life as a bean, or in a tank? I consider
that my protein would have more happiness as a cow and so by market
forces I eat meat so that more protein may have more happiness. This is
not a widely shared perspective but yet the only pro-vegetarian argument
I know that comes near it relates to ill-treatment of animals, and of
course I want my meat to be happy before I eat it. (I don't eat a lot of
meat).

I think this viewpoint may be instructive in the software-advocacy field
too, and that Jelle raises good points; So I now try to extent what I
learn from my views on meat to a general form and come to this principle
which I learned somewhere else:

Add to the good others already have

which means don't ask others to throw away their current position and
start again to "do it right" and this is logical for you would be asking
them to have confidence that you are exactly right, otherwise the next
day someone else may point out your error and they would have to "start
again" again.

I made an observation about contexts yesterday in relation to a computer
product that has Z in it's name. It's name is spelt TZ and it's name is
pronounced TeeZee because it is an American product. To the American The
product is "TeeZee" as spelt and there is an unconscious underlying
American context. To me as an Englishman the American context is raised
to surround the name and affect how it is pronounced: "TeeZee" and spelt
"Tee Zed".

The point of this observation is to show that the American does not
realise that the product name is not pronounced as it is spelt because
his context blinds him to that.

The American could have this explained to him, but he would only truly
appreciate it when he realises that outside USA represents a bigger
market than inside USA.

We know that the proprietary captive cannot understand the disadvantages
of captivity until it prevents him from exercising liberty.

Therefore, as is said, attacking reasons which from his context were
un-important or seemingly somewhat beneficial questions his judgement
and as Jelle says makes you an enemy.

The safe thing to do is to add to the good they have. Once the TZ
product is marketed outside the USA, the marketing department are happy
to revise the "pronounced as it is spelt" belief, or even change the name.

So my view is offer to add to the good people have; acknowledge how
their choice helped them, and offer them more help.

Sam
--
[FSF Associate Member #2325]
<http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=2325>

<http://www.openrightsgroup.org/>
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Theo Schmidt
2010-11-03 17:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ascoet
Post by Jelle Hermsen
I derived this idea from social psychology and I would love to hear what
you all think of it.
Hi, I think you're right. We're facing the same issue while trying to convince people to stop meat consumption.
OK, hands up for those who love free software and open content, go easy on the
meat, prefer cycling to driving and using trains to planes, and try to use solar
energy rather than fossil or atomic fuels! :-)

Seriously, I find some of these things go together, but professing to them all
is guaranteed to get labelled as a "do-gooder" ("Gutmensch" in German), not
meant as a compliment!

Theo Schmidt
Jelle Hermsen
2010-11-03 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo Schmidt
Post by Stephane Ascoet
Post by Jelle Hermsen
I derived this idea from social psychology and I would love to hear what
you all think of it.
Hi, I think you're right. We're facing the same issue while trying to convince people to stop meat consumption.
OK, hands up for those who love free software and open content, go easy on the
meat, prefer cycling to driving and using trains to planes, and try to use solar
energy rather than fossil or atomic fuels! :-)
Seriously, I find some of these things go together, but professing to them all
is guaranteed to get labelled as a "do-gooder" ("Gutmensch" in German), not
meant as a compliment!
Theo Schmidt
I agree that it might be a good idea to compartmentalize your ideals, so
that you're not spreading them thin. But being a Gutmensch also implies
that you're naive and impractical and I think that might be somewhat of
a harsh judgment. Take RMS for example. When I take a look at his
website (http://stallman.org ) it's hard to miss that he cares about a
lot of issues, but I wouldn't say he's naive or impractical, au
contraire, mon fr?re.
However, I do believe you raise an important point. Where do we draw the
line. Which issues belong to the FSFE and which don't? It's obvious meat
consumption doesn't, but what issues surrounding free software and
computing in general should we fight for?

- Do we care about the low participation of women in floss (I know I
do)?

- What do we think about the digital divide, in which people (mostly
elderly, but don't forget illiterates) miss out on the digital age. Free
software could be of great importance here!

- And what to say about the need for widespread broadband internet
coverage. Children are growing up in rural areas in Europe without
access to all the digital goodness we take for granted. Tried to surf or
apt-get/yum with a 56k6 modem lately?

Just to name a few. I don't say we should care about every single thing
and it's very important to keep your focus, but when it comes to caring
about other people and good causes in general, I'd rather be a somewhat
naive altruistic sissy than a clear headed guy who knows when to tone
down.

Cheerio,
Jelle
Paul O'Malley
2010-11-03 21:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Are these good practices?

Let other people say, open source, reply with Free Software, until they
say they are the same, and then fire out a stock reply, "They are not,
you should say Free Software ..." (for reasons people on this list
understand and I won't bother to repeat).

When talking about Free Software let someone else say closed source or
copyrighted or professional or something else that is blatantly wrong
and then help them see why their phrasing does not work, and the phrase
they search for is proprietary software, and it is called this because
of the licence you get restricting their freedoms.

We should remember we became as expert as we are in the domain over a
long period of time, we can't educate people all in one go, so spread a
little every day! ;-) We have the answers, let people question, don't
take it as an opportunity to brain dump. Free as in Freedom is a great
way to keep them engaged. (See the first start up screen of gNewSense,
it was a huge statement and got the focus where it was needed.)

Maybe it is true and if we lead with proprietary software means we are
on the back foot in your attack from the off, this of course means that
the space is open for our enemy to exploit, therefore lead with our
weapon, Free Software, personally it has often be easy for me to start
to explain it by saying Free as in Freedom, and to guide this we have
four basic rules. For the lay person that is usually enough in one go.
Matthias Kirschner
2010-11-02 17:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jelle Hermsen
I recently joined the fellowship and yesterday I wrote a blog post on my
new FSFE blog titled: Advocacy doesn?t work if you tell someone they?re
wrong
(http://blogs.fsfe.org/jelle/2010/10/31/advocacy-doesnt-work-if-you-tell-someone-theyre-wrong/ ).
[...]
Post by Jelle Hermsen
My post states that it's best to not talk about proprietary software too
much when you're trying to advocate free software. Pointing out the
problems of the proprietary software somebody uses might actually lead
them to dig there heels in, preventing them to be susceptible to any of
your good arguments.
Yes, this is a good aproach. But sometimes it is also difficult not to
mention the problems of non-free software.

For example when you want to explain that Free Software is not leading
to service monopolies, it is difficult not to mention that non-free
software is leading towards monopolies. I think you can explain such
things, but than you have to be careful about the tone.

Regards,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kirschner - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator
Free Software Foundation Europe (fsfe.org)
Free Software is important to you? Join today! (fsfe.org/join)
David Gerard
2010-11-02 18:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthias Kirschner
For example when you want to explain that Free Software is not leading
to service monopolies, it is difficult not to mention that non-free
software is leading towards monopolies. I think you can explain such
things, but than you have to be careful about the tone.
Anecdotes and war stories help. Any sysadmin who's ever been screwed
over by a proprietary software company will be a BIG FAN of free
software, simply to defend their company. I've found (as a sysadmin)
that these also help sway management opinion, at least slightly.


- d.
Jelle Hermsen
2010-11-02 19:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Gerard
Post by Matthias Kirschner
I think you can explain such
things, but than you have to be careful about the tone.
Anecdotes and war stories help. Any sysadmin who's ever been screwed
over by a proprietary software company will be a BIG FAN of free
software, simply to defend their company. I've found (as a sysadmin)
that these also help sway management opinion, at least slightly.
Thanks for all the replies. Quite a lot of food for thought, to say the
least.
I really love the different approaches and view points you all have. It
shows me there's no groupthink in the FSFE and I like that very much.
Groupthink is another term used in psychology which I often recognize in
free software / open source communities. It can lead to a great amount
of people adopting a quite extreme opinion in a short time. Anyway,
that's a totally different story :)

Because of the multitude and variety of ideas I don't think it's a good
idea to change the advocacy FAQ. At least not at this point. I do
however believe it's a very good thing to keep thinking about how to
advocate free software.

One thing I learn from all your responses is that there's really no
single approach which can act as a panacea for free software advocacy.
Different people need different approaches and that's just one of the
things which add to the already multi-faceted free software movement,
which in my opinion makes it very exciting.

I'm very glad I decided to join the fellowship. I'll read all the ideas
and urls you sent, it's a great source of inspiration.
Post by David Gerard
Basically, people don't take advice.
@david: I think you have a point there. That's why it's a good idea to
not make it sound too much like an advice. It might actually be much
better for people to do the math themselves and just give them enough
information to do it. I'm quite aware that this approach really depends
on the amount of involvement of your advocatee (I don't think that's
really a word, the person you're advocating to?) The link you send
(http://mindprod.com/ethics/persuasion.html) reminds me of politeness
theory.
Post by David Gerard
Hi, I think you're right. We're facing the same issue while trying to
convince people to stop meat consumption.
@stephane: I believe reactance is a universal problem which applies to
many situations in which you're trying to convince someone. Meat
consumption, animal testing, climate change, you name it, they all have
much in common and reactance is a great part of that.
Post by David Gerard
So my view is offer to add to the good people have; acknowledge how
their choice helped them, and offer them more help
...
The safe thing to do is to add to the good they have.
@sam: I really like your TZ analogy and I totally agree with you context
is very important. It can serve as a building block for your message.
Post by David Gerard
Yes, this is a good aproach. But sometimes it is also difficult not to
mention the problems of non-free software.
@matthias: True. But there's a time and place for everything, and at the
same time trying to convince people and addressing problems might not
work well.

Best regards,
Jelle
Michael Kesper
2010-11-05 19:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Jelle Hermsen
Hi everybody,
I recently joined the fellowship and yesterday I wrote a blog post on my
new FSFE blog titled: Advocacy doesn?t work if you tell someone they?re
wrong
(http://blogs.fsfe.org/jelle/2010/10/31/advocacy-doesnt-work-if-you-tell-someone-theyre-wrong/ ).
Thanks for the post!
I'm planning to have some kind of "workshop" for advocacy at our next booth
(OpenRheinRuhr [0]) and first thought of many things to symbolize the bad
things about non-free software, but now, I think I'll concentrate on the good
things of Free Software instead.

Best wishes
Michael
--
Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) [] (http://fsfe.org)
Treten Sie der Fellowship bei! [][][] (http://fellowship.fsfe.org/join)
Ihre Spende erm?glicht unsere Arbeit! || (http://fsfe.org/donate)
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